Permadeath is a stupid idea.  It will drive players away.  Unfortunately, some group of devs are going to flush their dollars down the toilet trying out this useless game feature.

Permadeath adds nothing.  Nothing.

Originally posted by Fugnudz

Permadeath is a stupid idea.  It will drive players away.  Unfortunately, some group of devs are going to flush their dollars down the toilet trying out this useless game feature.

Permadeath adds nothing.  Nothing.

Originally posted by BalanceFx

Originally posted by Fugnudz

Permadeath is a stupid idea.  It will drive players away.  Unfortunately, some group of devs are going to flush their dollars down the toilet trying out this useless game feature.

Permadeath adds nothing.  Nothing.

Gamespot and my own informal poll both say otherwise. But we value your vote as if you speak from a position of authority. Enjoy your WOW clones and keep stating your 1 opinion as fact with no justification or factual basis.

Gamespot poll. Be sure to vote. LOL
http://www.gamespot.com/features/6085963/p-10.html

My poll
http://www.digg.com/gaming_news/Take_the_Poll_Would_you_Support_Permadeath_in_Future_MMORPGs

Folks answer polls any way they like, but the proof is in subscription numbers upon release.  However, I have seen permadeath in tabletop roleplaying and it always puts a damper on the campaign.  If you have permadeath in a MMORPG, at the very least it fragments your online identity before your online gaming friends, who have to keep track that Thurs is the son of Vurs, who was the son of Gurs, which they always used to go into dungeons with.

The minor "realism" bonus does not in anyway measure up to the hit that online gaming takes when what happens is effectively a forced name change.

Originally posted by holythough
This is only partly treu sins you assuming that it will be an mmorpg like you know it but in fact suchs a system would have suchs a fundemental different way of going around things it wouldn't be the same as a classical mmorpg. Beside that it's pretty easy to have server side checks to determine if a death is valid.

Honestly, I've read most of the posts and I have yet to see someone outline in detail this magical system that will have "suchs a fundamental different way of going around things".

All is see is a bunch of people saying "perma-death will work in a game that is different from the current MMORPG model".

It's like me saying that "karate chopping someone over the Internet is possible but only if we have different types of computers."

By the way, the system where if your character dies you take control of one of his/her descendents is not a true permadeath system. It is basicaly the same system that exists in today's MMORPGs with a slight veriation. Hell, original UO's death system was much more perma than that one.

On a more serious note, permadeath will not work in a game where you have to acomplish something to advance.

As far as that link, quite honestly, none of those implimentations will work and here is why.

1. PdoT: You will permanently die over time. This has two subclasses, ‘Subclass A’ that accounts for skill and ‘Subclass B’ that does not. In the first you are given X lives and when you run out of them you must reroll but in the latter you are given X time and irregardless of your actions or skill you will reroll when that time is used up.

This is basicaly like real life. Well the later part is. Why would I want to play a game that is like real life? I live a real life, I use games as a form of entertainment. I know that for some games are a way of life (like that chick that pimped herself out for 5k gold in WoW) but for most of us these things are just like movies, music and books. 

The first part of that system may work but it will have the same effect as Ultima Online's has/had where people would not leave town wearing their good gear. People would find ways to avoid dying at all costs--from exploits to roaming the map in huge numbers obliterating everything and everyone in their sight--it simply would not work. Those of you who remember UO will no doubt remember the people showing off their stuff infront of Britain bank.

2. Iron Man Permadeath: You get one life. When you die you reroll. (There is the Dungeons and Dragons variation of this that allows you to be resurrected from the dead state by a friend but each resurrection uses up a hard limit. Commonly related to a physical attribute such as health or constitution.)

Same thing as the above concent with a slight difference.

3. Watch your step: This is actually a combination of both Subclasses of PdoT. You are given X lives for X time. Commonly it is X lives per 24 hours. Should you die more then X times in this specific time period then you will reroll, however every X period of times that number will reset. Some allow roll-over lives like a cell phone plan and some don’t.

In other words all I have to do to avoid re-rolling is log off after I die an x amount of times? Not only is this system easily circumvented but it is also a backwards approach to a game. Such a system encourages players not to play.

Originally posted by heartless

On a more serious note, permadeath will not work in a game where you have to acomplish something to advance.

As far as that link, quite honestly, none of those implimentations will work and here is why.

1. PdoT: You will permanently die over time. This has two subclasses, ‘Subclass A’ that accounts for skill and ‘Subclass B’ that does not. In the first you are given X lives and when you run out of them you must reroll but in the latter you are given X time and irregardless of your actions or skill you will reroll when that time is used up.

This is basicaly like real life. Well the later part is. Why would I want to play a game that is like real life? I live a real life, I use games as a form of entertainment. I know that for some games are a way of life (like that chick that pimped herself out for 5k gold in WoW) but for most of us these things are just like movies, music and books. 

The first part of that system may work but it will have the same effect as Ultima Online's has/had where people would not leave town wearing their good gear. People would find ways to avoid dying at all costs--from exploits to roaming the map in huge numbers obliterating everything and everyone in their sight--it simply would not work. Those of you who remember UO will no doubt remember the people showing off their stuff infront of Britain bank.

2. Iron Man Permadeath: You get one life. When you die you reroll. (There is the Dungeons and Dragons variation of this that allows you to be resurrected from the dead state by a friend but each resurrection uses up a hard limit. Commonly related to a physical attribute such as health or constitution.)

Same thing as the above concent with a slight difference.

3. Watch your step: This is actually a combination of both Subclasses of PdoT. You are given X lives for X time. Commonly it is X lives per 24 hours. Should you die more then X times in this specific time period then you will reroll, however every X period of times that number will reset. Some allow roll-over lives like a cell phone plan and some don’t.

In other words all I have to do to avoid re-rolling is log off after I die an x amount of times? Not only is this system easily circumvented but it is also a backwards approach to a game. Such a system encourages players not to play.

All is see is a bunch of people saying "perma-death will work in a game that is different from the current MMORPG model".

It's like me saying that "karate chopping someone over the Internet is possible but only if we have different types of computers."

Originally posted by BalanceFx
You are attempting to authoritively speak on MMORPG design with absolutely no experience and no sources or proof whatsover.

Lets agree its your opinion and I agree with you that a WoW designed game that features permadeath would not work. See we agree.

However, stating permadeath is a stupid idea and will never work makes you sound ignorant and biased. (Extremely so)

Based on how quickly you responded you didn't even read the links I posted which some people will and then those people will consider you to be blathering on about something you just don't even have a vague idea about. You have FAITH that permadeath is bad, but unlike a beleif in other supernatural events, you dont have to read the x-files or get baptized, you just have to use google and possess the ability to read and understand.

So do some research and we can debate permadeath. I can save you some time researching. You can go here and read someone who intelligently argues his points on permadeath. So as you scan this thread to snap back a smart remark, take a moment and do some reading. ;)

If its any consolation 95% of the people will skim over this thread without reading any of the links either, so no worries, just another of the hoi polloi.

Excuse me, but I've been playing games of all media (except playstation stuff) since the early 1970's.  I have seen games in paper and tabletop format before they even were crafted into computer applications.  The old explore, exterminate, exploit space gaming was play by mail format before it ever became stuff like Masters of Orion or Galactic Civ, etc... I played the early D&D, Boothill, Empires of the Petal Throne and such when they came out.  I played the computer games "as they came out".  I have played MMORPG's for several years now.

So, basically, I know something about gaming (whatever that's worth) and something about what it takes to make a decent MMORPG (at least from the player aspect).

Permadeath in table top gaming, means you reroll your character and "maybe" inherit some of the gear and rep from your previous character.  So what.  Permadeath in MMORPG gaming means you'll have to pick a new character name and track down everyone you know online to tell them "Hey, Gork is now Dork.  It's me, same guy."  Again, so what.

The gain?  Added realism which no one notes or cares about.  Permadeath adds little, but can take away much.  Not worth it.

And, as someone noted earlier in the thread, what happens if connection goes down during a fight.  Log back on and face permadeath consequences?  That can happen several times in a night, if there's a storm or something in the area.

But, like I said, go ahead and try it out.  Sometimes you have to put the poodle in the microwave just to verify the warning label means what it says.

Originally posted by Fugnudz

Originally posted by BalanceFx
You are attempting to authoritively speak on MMORPG design with absolutely no experience and no sources or proof whatsover.

Lets agree its your opinion and I agree with you that a WoW designed game that features permadeath would not work. See we agree.

However, stating permadeath is a stupid idea and will never work makes you sound ignorant and biased. (Extremely so)

Based on how quickly you responded you didn't even read the links I posted which some people will and then those people will consider you to be blathering on about something you just don't even have a vague idea about. You have FAITH that permadeath is bad, but unlike a beleif in other supernatural events, you dont have to read the x-files or get baptized, you just have to use google and possess the ability to read and understand.

So do some research and we can debate permadeath. I can save you some time researching. You can go here and read someone who intelligently argues his points on permadeath. So as you scan this thread to snap back a smart remark, take a moment and do some reading. ;)

If its any consolation 95% of the people will skim over this thread without reading any of the links either, so no worries, just another of the hoi polloi.

 

Excuse me, but I've been playing games of all media (except playstation stuff) since the early 1970's.  I have seen games in paper and tabletop format before they even were crafted into computer applications.  The old explore, exterminate, exploit space gaming was play by mail format before it ever became stuff like Masters of Orion or Galactic Civ, etc... I played the early D&D, Boothill, Empires of the Petal Throne and such when they came out.  I played the computer games "as they came out".  I have played MMORPG's for several years now.

So, basically, I know something about gaming (whatever that's worth) and something about what it takes to make a decent MMORPG (at least from the player aspect).

Permadeath in table top gaming, means you reroll your character and "maybe" inherit some of the gear and rep from your previous character.  So what.  Permadeath in MMORPG gaming means you'll have to pick a new character name and track down everyone you know online to tell them "Hey, Gork is now Dork.  It's me, same guy."  Again, so what.

The gain?  Added realism which no one notes or cares about.  Permadeath adds little, but can take away much.  Not worth it.

And, as someone noted earlier in the thread, what happens if connection goes down during a fight.  Log back on and face permadeath consequences?  That can happen several times in a night, if there's a storm or something in the area.

But, like I said, go ahead and try it out.  Sometimes you have to put the poodle in the microwave just to verify the warning label means what it says.

Originally posted by rojoh

All is see is a bunch of people saying "perma-death will work in a game that is different from the current MMORPG model".

It's like me saying that "karate chopping someone over the Internet is possible but only if we have different types of computers."

First, can we just agree that different doesn't mean "boring" and "not fun".  I would never want a piece that moves like a Knight in a Checkers game, but that doesn't make Chess stupid.  As for examples, I myself put some on  the previous page of this very thread.  But here are a few:

1) Make characters disposable.  Nobody wants to lose a lvl 70 on WoW.  That character is the result of hundreds of game hours.  But does anybody care if they lose a CT on Counterstrike?  No, because it starts fully equipped and ready for a scuffle.  As soon as he goes down the player gets another one almost immediately.  Both of these games are vastly popular, so why can't something in the middle work?  A character that grows and develops, but also starts with traits that makes it good in a fight.  It will only be the culmination of 30h gameplay.

Because these are roleplaying game first and foremost. Sticking with one character in a roleplaying game is part of the equation as character growth and development is probably the most important part of the game. While permadeath may work in an MMOG with disposable characters, having an MMORPG with such a system is never going to work.

2) Take the emphasis off of end-game content.  What happens when 80% of the server population finishes all the end game content?  They  come out with a new expansion featuring a new class or a new dungeon.  And then it only takes about a month for 80% of the population to finish playing with all those new toys, but at the same time everything in the original version is obsolete.  For a PD game you won't need it end-game content, because there is no end game.  Players are just going to die and start over again.  So put heavy heavy heavy emphasis into mid-game content.  Put in the kinds of things players LIKE to do over and over again.  PvP for example is something that players will go out of their way to do for mindless amounts of time.  And adding a new mid-level dungeon is the same as adding a new end-level dungeon, except more people can enjoy it and not just the upper crust.

Here is the problem. You are assuming that people will start over and over again without getting fed up with doing the same thing over and over again. Your suggestion is basicaly moving the end-game to the mid-game which makes it the new end-game as most people will never progress higher. Doing the same thing over and over again is for mindless fun is fine and dandy but again, it may work in a game like Counter Strike because that is what the game was designed for but having the same thing in a RPG is limiting the game.

3) Put an emphasis on player-positions of authority.  Imagine if there was one person on the entire server who controlled how much everybody else paid for taxes.  There is obvious potential for abuse here so how do you get a bad-egg to step down?  With an arbitrary time limit?  In a game with life-counter permadeath, people who hate the job he is doing can just kill him until PD's and leaves his position vacant.  Now imagine 30 or 40 positions: chief of police controls the NPC guards, dockmaster controls when ships can set sail or weigh anchor, king of thieves puts bounties on other players, master blacksmith personally sets all the prices for armor in a town/kingdom, etc... Plus all the player created positions of Guild Leader, you could have an endless supply of REAL JOBS.  Not something stupid like "fletcher" who is the same as every other 4 million fletchers on the server.  And there would be real competition for these jobs.

That will never work in today's MMORPGs. Say I am a mayor of a town and I go on vacation, who's going to control the town? Or will the game be placed on hold for everyone else? The problem with this idea, eventhough it sounds good on paper, is that it is too much like real life. Games are forms of entertainment first and foremost and as such need to be like all the other forms of entertainment where we can turn them off when real life obligations start knocking on the door. Having a system such as you describe requires similar commitment as real life does.

Nobody who hates PD ever has to play a game with PD.  But why do you guys get so angry when we ask for one that we can play?

I don't think anyone gets angry about permadeath. Personaly, I'm just voicing my opinion on the subject. If that bothers you, than having such a discussion on an open forum is probably not a good idea.

Originally posted by heartless

Originally posted by rojoh

All is see is a bunch of people saying "perma-death will work in a game that is different from the current MMORPG model".

It's like me saying that "karate chopping someone over the Internet is possible but only if we have different types of computers."

First, can we just agree that different doesn't mean "boring" and "not fun".  I would never want a piece that moves like a Knight in a Checkers game, but that doesn't make Chess stupid.  As for examples, I myself put some on  the previous page of this very thread.  But here are a few:

1) Make characters disposable.  Nobody wants to lose a lvl 70 on WoW.  That character is the result of hundreds of game hours.  But does anybody care if they lose a CT on Counterstrike?  No, because it starts fully equipped and ready for a scuffle.  As soon as he goes down the player gets another one almost immediately.  Both of these games are vastly popular, so why can't something in the middle work?  A character that grows and develops, but also starts with traits that makes it good in a fight.  It will only be the culmination of 30h gameplay.

Because these are roleplaying game first and foremost. Sticking with one character in a roleplaying game is part of the equation as character growth and development is probably the most important part of the game. While permadeath may work in an MMOG with disposable characters, having an MMORPG with such a system is never going to work.

2) Take the emphasis off of end-game content.  What happens when 80% of the server population finishes all the end game content?  They  come out with a new expansion featuring a new class or a new dungeon.  And then it only takes about a month for 80% of the population to finish playing with all those new toys, but at the same time everything in the original version is obsolete.  For a PD game you won't need it end-game content, because there is no end game.  Players are just going to die and start over again.  So put heavy heavy heavy emphasis into mid-game content.  Put in the kinds of things players LIKE to do over and over again.  PvP for example is something that players will go out of their way to do for mindless amounts of time.  And adding a new mid-level dungeon is the same as adding a new end-level dungeon, except more people can enjoy it and not just the upper crust.

Here is the problem. You are assuming that people will start over and over again without getting fed up with doing the same thing over and over again. Your suggestion is basicaly moving the end-game to the mid-game which makes it the new end-game as most people will never progress higher. Doing the same thing over and over again is for mindless fun is fine and dandy but again, it may work in a game like Counter Strike because that is what the game was designed for but having the same thing in a RPG is limiting the game.

3) Put an emphasis on player-positions of authority.  Imagine if there was one person on the entire server who controlled how much everybody else paid for taxes.  There is obvious potential for abuse here so how do you get a bad-egg to step down?  With an arbitrary time limit?  In a game with life-counter permadeath, people who hate the job he is doing can just kill him until PD's and leaves his position vacant.  Now imagine 30 or 40 positions: chief of police controls the NPC guards, dockmaster controls when ships can set sail or weigh anchor, king of thieves puts bounties on other players, master blacksmith personally sets all the prices for armor in a town/kingdom, etc... Plus all the player created positions of Guild Leader, you could have an endless supply of REAL JOBS.  Not something stupid like "fletcher" who is the same as every other 4 million fletchers on the server.  And there would be real competition for these jobs.

That will never work in today's MMORPGs. Say I am a mayor of a town and I go on vacation, who's going to control the town? Or will the game be placed on hold for everyone else? The problem with this idea, eventhough it sounds good on paper, is that it is too much like real life. Games are forms of entertainment first and foremost and as such need to be like all the other forms of entertainment where we can turn them off when real life obligations start knocking on the door. Having a system such as you describe requires similar commitment as real life does.

Nobody who hates PD ever has to play a game with PD.  But why do you guys get so angry when we ask for one that we can play?

I don't think anyone gets angry about permadeath. Personaly, I'm just voicing my opinion on the subject. If that bothers you, than having such a discussion on an open forum is probably not a good idea.

I will say that I think you are beginning to see the merits of PD while still trying to play devil's advocate.

Ok.. Stick with one character is paramount to roleplaying... Out right false. I have seen people play 6 Alts in 6 different manners just as often as I have seen 6 alts played identically. The death a certain character can have resounding meaning to the game and its mechanics. If the focus is on the players then it will be the players running the show. Certainally your familiar with Martyrs. But saying if my character dies I cant roleplay anymore and my character can no longer have an effect on the world may be true for current mmorpgs that implemented PD but would never be true for a real PD game where players were the ones running the show. In real life, einsten and MANY others are dead but still play a huge role in the affairs of men today.

The whole start over argument with doing the same thing over and over doesn't hold any weight. Max ramp up time for noob to top level is theorized to be 3 months for a casual player. And never would what their doing being the same. The whole environment changes as does the players running the show. How they progress is never the same way twice. Granted you see it as a problem and I see it as something a PD focused game MUST address to be successful. You cant have months and months of killing rabbits and then doing these runs and then these runs to be the most powerful. Its stupid if you have to repeat it and I dont actually mind rerolling, but after rerolling 5 times Im bored in any game on the market today. A PD game cant focus on just having end game content thats fun nor can it make max level infinitely more powerful then a noob. (Twitch skill, game skill fine but in terms of avatar power... no) Max power between max level and noob level in terms of avatar power should be about 3 to 1 at the highest. (Ie a maxxed out player is 3 times as powerful as a noob player)

Of course that should all be relative. A Player that spends 3 months in game crafting candles is probably not going to be a challenge for a noob who has spent a few hours fighting. Specialization is important as well. Essentially... The game cant be about maxxing out your character which we have all been talking about.

RE: The mayor of a town. Take a 1 month break. Who cares. The mayor is the mayor of the people who choose to accept him as mayor.

IF you dont like the fact that hes not there as often as you then you can run for mayor and EVEN if he is not their to oppose you... You will still see players lobby and support him for various reasons. A game for players means players will have the power to make their own power.

Permadeath is by far the best leveling device players could use. You would see no whining about templates and this and that. And more about this town sucks or this guild needs to go. Player conflicts that players themselves could resolve. This assumes a well balanced game to begin with.  (A classless system is ideal as well, skill based with perhaps player created and bestowed titles... Death Dealer, Black Assassin, White Mage... etc etc...)

Originally posted by Iiis
I used to be a fervent advocate for PD, but I'm not so sure now. Permadeath can never be implemented to act as death does in real life, because the 'Create New Account' button is always there. What do I mean? Well, the main use of murder in real life, getting rid of a person from the world, is totally un-implementable in a game.

Some of the most interesting situations where death is used in real life, such as assasination (sneak into the enemy guild's fortress to off their leader) couldn't work at all in games. The guild wouldn't collapse due to infighting over his succesor, because he could just log back in as a level one and give orders (and he doesn't even need to do that, he can still co-ordinate from the forums/metagame).  The only way to drive a person from a game is to make it so boring/frustrating that they don't want to play, which isn't really an option.

Granted there are situations where PD could be useful in game; slaughter all the PK bandits raiding your town and they can't return until they've relevelled their characters. I think this kind of things could be better implemented with NPCs; there's 30 NPCs and 10 players in my village, and though the 10 players can't PermaDie, the NPC workers can, and are a precious resource and must be protected as they're hard to replace.

It also leads to less identification with characters, as has been identified, in-game friends ask each other for their real identities so they can reunite if one of them dies.

With other people's posts in mind, from an RP perspective PD doesn't really add a great deal to game realism.

A system where alt characters exist on one account, like the family system mentioned above, where 'children' inherit some of the parents traits and equipment, could work, although they'd have to be cleverly implemented and not just an obtuse way of giving someone an XP and equipment penalty.

Death penalties are however an important aspect of gameplay. I'd say that fun increases as death penalties increase, due to more excitement and challenge, but there's a peak after which increased death penalties lead to frustration. The exact location of the peak obviously varies from player to player, and depends on time invested in the game, frequency and avoidability of death, levelling system (if you can level up to lvl 99 by killing one million rabbits, forget it; players'll just kill the rabbits because it's the most sensible course but hate doing it).

I think instead of PD we need some more innovation in ressurection. Look to single player games and see how they handle saves, too few save points and the game is frustrating, too easy to save and some of the fun of challenges is lost (like playing SNES games on an emulator; against a really tough boss, I save throughout the battle whenever I make progress, but it sucks out the fun). Sound familiar?

One idea I'd like to see is player-run 'save'/revive points. In a graphical-MUD game I play, Urban Dead, players who die and become zombies can shamble over to a 'revive point' to be turned back into survivors. These revive points aren't coded in, they're just established places where zombies can stand and be revived by survivors with the right item. Some of them are more reliable than others, and there's things like the 'Sacred Ground Policy' which tries to get every cemetery to become a RP, with varying success.

In the game I'm working on, Shintolin, players don't die but they do 'swoon' in final fantasy style. This prevents them from taking any actions except movement, which is slower than if they were alive. They can be revived by healer characters with a prepared herbal poultice, which can be done more quickly when in a hospital building. I'm hoping to establish a similar RP system to Urban Dead.

I reckon the idea could be extended in a different setting. Players can choose to create a 'God' character that starts off a desert spirit (read Terry Pratchett's Small Gods) but can gain extra powers with more followers, and resurrect them at their temples? Mines where players can dig up those blue save crystals and buy one for their town? There's proably much better ideas as well. Oh the possibilites...