General Discussion

Ok, I ran this thread at the TCoS forums, but there is so little activety there it is kinda frustrating trying to have any meaning discussion apart from one or two other regular posters. Most of the few regulars who do post are, I am sure, mods under their civilian titles as well.. making me kinda wonder about the enthusiasm for this game, but thats another thread ;)

So... I am gonna throw it in here and see what you guys have to say :)

Community as a design choice.

I have read a few posts recently that say this game's community sucks, or that game's community sucks, and asking why? Is it mature content? Is it the sheer size of the player base? Is it the ubr guilds taking over? Is it just the nature of MMORPG players?  Is it something else?

Well, from my view, I believe it is all about the modern wave of game design post-WoW.

Now, I respect WoW. I don't play it, but I get why people do. I am not attacking that game here, but it does represent year zero for MMORPGs going mainstream and it's impact has been profound. Through it's succcess it has created a false expectation for new games to take what it does and amplify them 2000% based on the thinking that if a little works then a lot has gotta be better.

I personally think that this lazy, greedy, insepid approach to building a game for profit alone is what has created the terribible communities. In short, that bad communities are a design choice and nothing else.

Let me clarify a little;

If a MMORPG is 90% solo with no grouping, then reputation means nothing and people are free to act exactly as they like while hiding behind their monitor. Most will take this as a chance to be an asshat.

If the quest system is obvious and over detailed easy mode play, with GPS mapping and whatever so that we don't have to talk and help each other. No interdependence kills off social interaction and inter-reliance, and this allows, and indeed encourages, people to act like asshats. With no co-op play we are all against each other in a meaningless race. Instead of bringing us together, quest-grinding drives us apart

If the crafting has no interdependence or skill levels and everyone can make what they what when they want it for themselves so that we don't talk and trade with each other past using a AH, then people will be interfacing with the computer rather then a player and the social game dies.

If the game is designed so that no matter how badly you play you get the rewards, and there is no penalty for failure, so that reputation means nothing and everyone can act like a asshat because they know they don't need you, then there is no peer control over the more extreme members of a game's community.

All these thing are choices made along the design road. All remove the ability for a MMORPG to self police and peer pressure to act like a decent human being goes out the window.

I am hoping that one day a game will be made by someone who cares that will be true to what gave the first and second generation MMORPGs their souls and give us a  game where groupers and social interactors have a home, rather then create a online single player game where everyone just ghosts around from one GPS easy mode quest to the next.

My personal view is that there hasnt been a quality social fantasy MMORPG made since the Generation 2 games (EQ1, Shadowbane, AC etc), and if Ta game can corner that (large) niche market then it will live for years. If every game tries to go down the WoW route of casual lite ez mode solo play, then I know that I don't have a future with MMORPGs.

I am not asking them to re-make EQ1, or any of the others, I am just asking for not all MMORPGs to be a AoC type ghost game where everyone just runs around ignoring each other as they fullfil their latest batch of robot GPS led quests. I am not a luddite lost in gaming 10 years ago or anything, I recognise a lot of the older systems have had their day, but I genuinly think that when we got rid of these we simply threw the baby out with the bathwater.

We destroyed what made these games special, that is the living breathing community, and replaced them with a solo ez mode style of game that is great in the short term, but has left a lot wondering what happened to the old days. Lets face it, most MMORPGs are actually pretty crappy games... The only thing that makes them anything special is the communities. It just seems the devs out there lost sight of this.

In their rush to make a 'successful' game (one that makes a lot of money for them in the shortest time possible), they killed the goose that laid the golden egg of social gaming.

All the solutions to the ailments of old that the post WoW generation of MMORPGs (LotR, AoC etc) have thrown in have simply destroyed community. Take a look around, this is just a fact.


To be clear, I am only talking about community, not forced raiding, but I am a fan of grouping MMORPGs and co-operative gameplay. No dev these days seems to have the guts to actually make them anymore though, prefering instead to aim for the ultra-casual demographic in order to seek to maximise their market for the highest cash return in the shortest time.

By the way, I don't begrudge the creator a profit, but when financial decisions effect game design I have issues...

I get the need for casual gaming in a lot of people's lives, and I get the need for the soloers to play like they do, but I often wonder why people who want this play style arnt choosing other less time intensive games, like NWN2 or Elder Scrolls, or whatever. It seems they have been attracted to a genre by what makes it special, the chance to play with people, and then done everything in their power to change it once here by turning it into single player ez mode drivel and destroying the very thing that pulled them here in the first. It makes no sense to me.

These games were never great because of the play systems, obviously, they were made great originally because of the people that played them. When did we lose sight of this and settle for what we are fed now?

Ok, well, well done if you have made it this far.. lol

"Wall of text crits you for 7635."

But seriously, community for me represents the overall maturity and personality of a playerbase. Now I love WoW, but 80% of that is because I'm in a guild with some really great people. I've been on a few guild hops before after unfortunate disbands, and whenever that happens and I'm wandering the wilderness alone for a while, I lose all interest in the game.

I hear people moan about bad communities a lot, citing immaturity, selfishness or just downright idiocy, but I really do feel that MMO's are a lot like real life - you pick your friends and stick with them, and ignore the idiots.

Originally posted by Zayne3145

"Wall of text crits you for 7635."

But seriously, community for me represents the overall maturity and personality of a playerbase. Now I love WoW, but 80% of that is because I'm in a guild with some really great people. I've been on a few guild hops before after unfortunate disbands, and whenever that happens and I'm wandering the wilderness alone for a while, I lose all interest in the game.

I hear people moan about bad communities a lot, citing immaturity, selfishness or just downright idiocy, but I really do feel that MMO's are a lot like real life - you pick your friends and stick with them, and ignore the idiots.

7635??

But I used paragraphs and everything! hehe I didnt think people had thata hard time reading more then 5 lines these days ;)

I hear what you are saying but that really wasnt the point I was making... In every game there are obviously those to be ignored, but I am saying that badly thought out game design increases the percentage of those people to be ignored massively.

I agree with the OP in the sense if you cater to the lowest common denominator by removing challenge and the need for others you get a community in which every player is out for himself and treat others as competitors for what they want, or even enemies standing in their way. You also attract a lot of immature players with little decorum or discipline. Not to pump city of heroes, but beyond having the best customization in the industy, the community was probably the best I've been in because it was at its core a team oriented game, it also helps that it catered to people that wanted to be superheroes, i.e. helpful, altruistic personalities, hence if you have a question or need help, you scream out in broadcast and you'll always get answers or assistance. In fact the players are WAY more helpful than the GMs are who are in my opinion stealing a paycheck every week. I've also played with a lot of ex-wow players, even have a Wow GM on my global friend list and to a man they LOVED Coh's community and playstyle.  I would have to agree, u RARELY run into an asshat, you get the most challenging, and most fun missions in a full team, and you lvl fastest in teams. Couple that with the facts that its probably also the best fighting mmo out and casual friendly and you get 2004 Game of the Year.  Not saying try it necessarily, just that it seems to have done community building better than most.

There's some truth to that the state of the community is due to the design choices made when designing different systems (PvP, PvE, Quest, etc...).

The idea actually is the core that whether the developers want MMORPG to be just games or want them to be more of an evolving world where people can live out their desire/alter ego and whatnot.

Post-WoW the design of MMORPG seems to hit the new low in term of community building.  In WoW the ONLY community building tool is the guilds and arena teams, and arena teams are mostly made up of real life friends most of the time, same as guilds.  This destroy the idea of creating a large community in-game, even though people still help out others in the same faction. 

But this is not the only reason behind the destruction of the community, one of the other major reason is the thinking each system bring into the game.

Solo-Heavy design and Combat-Heavy design show that players do not need to depend on other players... No dependence of any kind = no community unless they are someone you know in Real Life.  The exception are those who are more open online and willing to meet new people online, but except that, there are no point in grouping or to creating a lasting community.

In the end, it is the "theme-park style game" of MMORPG versus "simulating evolving world style" of MMORPG are the core design.  Too bad most developers, in the quest of wanting to appeal to the mass, choose the former instead of the latter.  I believe the latter will grow and will in the next 10 - 20 years be the mainstream (instead of just playing an online game, you get to live our your fantasy... not playing, but living it out... that's the tread of thinking the design should impart to players...)

I think solo quests need to stop. This is what happens in a game dominated by solo quests:

Player is doing their thing, sees another player walk by, "ZOMG, he's my level and he's not from the other side! We should party!"

"What quest are you on?"

"Generic quest 20."

"Oh, I'm on generic quest 30. Bye."

Yeah, so even if you happen to be the same game, of the same level, in the same area, on the same side, you _also_ have to be doing the same quest if you want people to cooperate! It merely creates another dividing factor on top of the level system and the many many servers.

Originally posted by vesavius

 Community as a design Choice

Can't agree more with what you have said here.  This mirrors my own thoughts on design so closely that I would like to discuss this further with you.  I will say in advance that if the topic of NDAs arise that we will most likely disagree somewhat on the idiology regarding breakage of those.

I think it's very uncommon for non designers to point out that developers are responsible for how there game develops to a great extent.  Most people will simply blame the community for its own pitfalls, as if it is an extension of the players rather than an extension of the designers flawed designs.  Anyway, I'll message you and hopefully you will want to discuss further.