Darkfall

Look beyond the full-loot pvp aspect of the game that will immeadiatly turn a certain % of the market away.  Look beyond people's opinions that the graphics are not the industry's absolute best. 

I want to just focus on the topic of combat for this thread.  So please if you have any comments about the games development, graphics, etc...please post it in another thread.  This should be pretty simple because I would really like to hear opinions about the combat system.

So as I mentioned in the other thread, a lot of people played WoW for their first MMO.  It was their introduction to the genre, and is proof that WoW improved the MMO genre more than anyone could imagine.  Say what you will about WoW, but its numbers are there and it has really opened so many gamer's eyes to MMOs. 

In WoW, you have a pretty simple and common combat system, that we have seen over the years but WoW really has perfected it for the masses.  You target your opponent, select your skill from the hot bar, and watch it take effect while you pretty much know what your next move will be.  If its pve for example, you may be spamming ice bolt while keeping an eye on your group members to possible have to decurse one of them.

In pvp, you pretty much have a general approach to every other class in the game for how you want to fight.

Darkfall's combat system is so extremely different, that I think a lot of gamers are just not use to it, and may even write the game off because it seems too challenging or they are afraid they wont be able to adapt.  They have gotten use to liking the idea of being able to lock on and push buttons. The idea of having one of their big spells simply side-stepped, or that they cant run around spamming aoe because it may kill their group too is a little confusing and just overwhelming.

It is new to not be able to look across the land and see who is over there behind that tree because they have big green letters over their head.  From the video, we see that your position on the ground can make or break the fight (put your back to the cliff and a knockback spell may end you) 

Now before I get attacked...im not saying everyone who doesnt like this game fits into the category I have explained.  But there is definitely some people who do.

Some of us love the idea of bringing twitch gameplay and skill back into the combat system.  PVP in a game like WoW can be challenging at times, but for the most part it is simple.   PVE is especially simple in raids once you have figured the fight out.  Standing there hitting one button over and over isnt really engaging...the challenge come from figuring out how the script works.

So is there a way for darkfall to market their combat system to maybe ease the mind of these players?  Do we just write them off as a loss?  There may be some who like the idea of full loot pvp in a sandbox, but dont like the idea of having to aim their attacks and manually dodge.  Remember that dodging in other mmos is sometimes as simple as "my gear gives me 20% to dodge, so i could basically afk while you attack me and i will "dodge" 20% of your hits".  In DF, you have to play a little bit of a chess game if you are close to a range attacker and try and make him miss.  Long range you obviously do the best you can of avoiding spells or arrows.

Again, I want to be clear that i know this combat system is not unique.  DF is not the first game to do this, so im not crediting them for being super creative in this respect, but we have not seen a fantasy MMO do this successfully for a little while and with graphics that come from the last couple of years. 

It is going to be a lot of fun learning the little things about the combat system, and getting better at it.  When skill comes into the equation, it gives you a lot more pride when you win a fight, and a lot more desire to improve when you get defeated.  You can't just say "oh that guy beat me because he raids pve with his uber corp 7 days a week and has the best gear".  Nope wont be an excuse, and i love it.

So this turned into a little rant, but I think it is a good topic for conversation.  WoW was obviously the example I used the most, but the same applies to WAR since it is pretty much the same thing.  AoC had their directional attacks that was innovative in a way, but ultimately did not work out.  EVE is a full-loot pvp anywhere sandbox, but still has similar problems with clicking some buttons and watching the show.  I play EVE so i know that certain ships require much more skill to fly, but the concept is accurate.

Well hopefully we can have a good discussion.  And again please keep comments to the combat system ONLY.  Anything else belongs in the other threads.

Difficult to say for now. The system itself may be something many people want to try and some will definitely turn away from it and play other games again. That is a matter of personal taste I suppose.

The problems with the combat system as I see them are as follows:

1) Lag. Yes, Aventurine may keep lag to a minimum, let's say for a moment they will actually achieve that, even in huge battles. There will still be lag, even if it is miniscule. A player being closer to the servers will have a millisecond advantage over others who are further away. In a "turn"based game, that does not really matter so much. In a FPS type game, it matters quite a bit more. I'm not saying this will be the undoing of the game, but it might be a problem when you apply swings that, for all the info on your screen should hit, but misses because you were a milisecond too late. This comes into play even more when it comes to ranged attacks. How that will balance itself out, we will have to see.

2) Complexity. Yes, many pepople say that this is a good thing and it is for those that this game will most likely hold the most appeal. Some people though will most likely be turned away by it? Why, because some people tend to want to enjoy themselves, and just that. No complicated maneuvers to learn, no hugely complex combat system to master, but simple and plain fun. I can see this being a deciding factor of keeping quite a few players, especially the crowd that was drawn in by WoW-Style games. This does not mean that I think any less of any certain preference. But preferences exist, and those who value a simple, fun time above the extreme complexity that DF will most likely bring will be turned away from the game by just that.

3) Exploitability. This is really in tune with the first point. Have a quicker connection? Make sure to jump and run around as much as possible, so the one with the slower connection doesn't stand a chance in hell to hit you. But yeah, as said above, we will have to see how that plays out and how Aventurine manage to deal with these things.

All in all, I am thinking that the combat system could be exciting and fun, but it could also turn out to be frustrating. And that largely depends on what kind of experience you enjoy. I have no doubt that quite a few people will not like the FPS style combat. I personally know quite a few who have already told me so. Me, I don#t know it yet. I will have to see how it is implemented.

But yes. The Combat System will keep a good portion of players away from the game.

Yes I do think some of the people that you describe will have to written off as a loss. 

People who don't play other kinds of games as well as mmorpg's might find that the play style just doesn't suit them.  I personally knew a lot of people in wow that had never, or rarely, played video games before world of warcraft.

On the other hand there are a lot of people who don't normally play mmo's because of the click and wait  combat that may be attracted to play Darkfall because of it's fps style.

I suppose in a way Darkfall is a cross genre game.

Originally posted by singsofdeath

 

1) Lag. Yes, Aventurine may keep lag to a minimum, let's say for a moment they will actually achieve that, even in huge battles. There will still be lag, even if it is miniscule. A player being closer to the servers will have a millisecond advantage over others who are further away. In a "turn"based game, that does not really matter so much. In a FPS type game, it matters quite a bit more. I'm not saying this will be the undoing of the game, but it might be a problem when you apply swings that, for all the info on your screen should hit, but misses because you were a milisecond too late. This comes into play even more when it comes to ranged attacks. How that will balance itself out, we will have to see.

 

Yup this will be interesting, and reminds me a lot of Planetside.  I had a terrible connection when I first started playing this game and it definitely effected my ability to compete.

I have been saying that my biggest concern with DF is server stability, which kind of works into this point.  If the game is laggy at all, it could really effect how rewarding the combat system is.  

The only thing i disgree with is that i believe it may be the undoing of the game if this becomes a noticeable problem and is not fixed promptly.  We are talking about a game that is based on pvp and combat.  If the backbone of the game is not functioning, it is going to crumble.  Especially with all the hate on this game, if it launches with a combat system that is simply broken, the reviews are going to crucify it and thats it.

Originally posted by Blodpls

On the other hand there are a lot of people who don't normally play mmo's because of the click and wait  combat that may be attracted to play Darkfall because of it's fps style.

I suppose in a way Darkfall a cross genre game.

This is a really good point.

Again ill reference Planetside and say that Planetside probably brought a lot of FPS fans into the MMO genre the same way WoW brought in new gamers. 

I have heard people call DF a MMORPGFPS before, not sure if i really agree with the FPS title being on this game at all, because it is a fps "style" and i believe it is more RPG than FPS.  Maybe I just link FPS to "boom headshot" and sniper rifles etc.

a little bit of a rant imbant ...

Anyway, I think once player reviews start popping up, Darkfall will attract more people who aren't afraid of trying something new, and challenging.  I think players who enjoyed the Elder Scrolls series,  Mount and Blade, Dark Messiah of Might and Magic, or even Age of Conan, will find a happy home on Agon ... as long as they can handle the open FFA PvP, full loot features. 

I'm hoping for a significant subscription base ... one that can sustain the game, and it's community, for years to come.

I reckon we'll see.

Originally posted by Palewulf

a little bit of a rant imbant ...

Anyway, I think once player reviews start popping up, Darkfall will attract more people who aren't afraid of trying something new, and challenging.  I think players who enjoyed the Elder Scrolls series,  Mount and Blade, Dark Messiah of Might and Magic, or even Age of Conan, will find a happy home on Agon ... as long as they can handle the open FFA PvP, full loot features. 

I'm hoping for a significant subscription base ... one that can sustain the game, and it's community, for years to come.

I reckon we'll see.

Yea im very interested to see what the subcription base will be 3 months or so after launch when we get a good picture of its fan base, assuming a good launch.  With about 10k players able to be online at one time, even if numbers are very low compared to wow, war etc...there should still be plenty to have a few servers that are 100% active all the time.  As long as it is fun for us, thats all that matters.  Everyone knows that DF will have low sub numbers, and they make the mistake of thinking that sub numbers = quality, which of course it doesnt. 

And believe it or not...it did start off as a small rant, but then I went back and added more into it =)