Darkfall

whole lot of energy being wasted here.

this thread also.

Originally posted by susanto1228

FIRST of all, looking at this game my first question is " why should we pay a subscription for this" there are already some PVP MMO's that are quiet good, look original OP i'm sorry this game is gonna FLOP ok, it is outdated, and fine if you guys want to have a small community so be it, because that's what is going too be, a small community of gankers running around for 2 or 3 years until you get tired of it? where's the dungeon element of it? is there one?  where's the adventure?  no, dont think so im staying away, good luck with your Ganking community

You are certainly entitled to think that but, personally, I think it is too early to tell.  Look at AoC for example, a lot of people thought that was going to be an amazing game, and by my count, it turned out to be a flop.

Yes, many of the graphics look out dated, I wont deny that.  They have said that the video was filmed on medium settings, and all we really have is their word.  However, if you look at an older gameplay video, the graphics do look noticable better.  Again, I hope that once beta comes out we will be in a better position to disprove a lot of these concerns.

You asked about the dungeon element and the adventure.  The game does have dungeons and mobs.  The mobs are suppose to be some of the best in mmos.  You can't just sit there as a tank and hold agro, the mobs aren't that mindless.  There are caves and dungeons and goblin outposts.  They aren't instanced though, so if those are the dungeons you are looking for, than no, this game is not for you. 

You ask about adventure, I think that this game, more than any other is full of adventure, or at least what I consider adventure.  You never know what you will find in darkfall.  Say every day for a week, you go to this goblin outpost and kill a bunch of them every day.  You might go there the next day and the outpost is gone, the goblins aren't going to stick around if they're constantly getting slaughtered every day.  If you want those goblins, you need to find them again.  Sounds like an adventure to me.  If you spend every day going to the same mine to get ore, you might be in for a big surprise when tomorrow it is inhabited by a dragon.  Is this not an adventure?  The world is massive by comparison, and there are plent of places to visit and explore.  If these doesn't sound like adventure ready experiences for you, I'm not sure if there is anything else I can say to convince you.

As for the subscription, that is up to you.  If this isn't a game for you, I don't expect you to pay for it.  I personally wouldn't pay for WoW.  I don't find the game fun and to me it seems like a chatroom with avatars, but that is just my opinion.

well, I have to admire your loyalty to DF, you defend the game and that's great. I've been there, defending a game until you can't defend no more and you yourself(talking about me) can't take anymore.

I wish Darkfall Luck I never wish anything bad on MMO's, I think the community as a whole is divided, we have a finicky crowd, we have been lied too and never paid attention to.   

If DF does have serious problems with large ganking clans taking over servers and declning subscriptions then I hope DF takes another approach and sees the errors in their model. 

The first indication of this is IF they start to merge servers early only time will tell. GL

The real problem here is that this game has taken way too long to develop. Ppl should be discussing the perticulars of  gameplay instead of if the game exists.

I hope that beta is out very soon or go gold or this will get worse.

Originally posted by TdogSkal

How is that a logical arguement?  It is impossiable for me to prove Darkfall exist so the burden of proof is on proving its real?  Seriously please think about that and tell me that has any logic to it at all.
 

The burden of proof always lies on both sides, never on one side.  You must prove it does not exist and I must prove it does exist.   Just like in the American court system, You must prove I did the crime, while I must prove I did not do the crime.   Its simple logic.

With any good debate the burden of proof is on both sides.  If it is impossiable to proof that Darkfall exist then logically Darkfall does exist.   How hard is that to understand?

I have developer logs, Video's, Screenshots, Beta sign up pages, a publisher as my proof.  You only have your opinion as proof.  Logic againt states that I have the proof and you do not..... Their for its on you to disprove my proof which you cannot.

What you got next?

Argumentum ad ignorantiam (argument to ignorance): This is the fallacy of assuming something is true simply because it hasn't been proven false. For example, someone might argue that global warming is certainly occurring because nobody has demonstrated conclusively that it is not. But failing to prove the global warming theory false is not the same as proving it true.

From California State University

Please please check your facts. In fact, this website uses the same example you did: an American Courtroom. Ever heard of the phrase "Innocent until proven guilty?" I believe the key word there is "proven," implying that the burden of proof rests on the party trying to prove something into existence (the prosecution) as opposed to the party trying to prove something into unexistence (the defense). I cannot possibly prove Darkfall into unexistence, therefore you must prove it into existence.

What evidence do you provide? Developer logs? I could write those myself in my spare time, whether I have a game in development or not. Videos? I've seen claims that these were faked, but I consider them to be real. Even so, they offer no conclusive evidence that points to Darkfall. There is a few seconds (compiled) of UI footage, and absolutely nothing that would point to sandbox gameplay (which is what Darkfall is all about). Screenshots? Again, easily fakeable. Beta sign up pages? Yea, I could go make a beta sign up page for Dog Trainer Online but that doesn't make it a real game.

Aventurine has to show some realy footage of Darkfall; show some of the features that seperate Darkfall from the other games out there or let us play the game so we can find them for ourselves. Until that happens, I have every right to not believe in Darkfall.

Originally posted by Stormreaver

What evidence do you provide? Developer logs? I could write those myself in my spare time, whether I have a game in development or not. Videos? I've seen claims that these were faked, but I consider them to be real. Even so, they offer no conclusive evidence that points to Darkfall. There is a few seconds (compiled) of UI footage, and absolutely nothing that would point to sandbox gameplay (which is what Darkfall is all about). Screenshots? Again, easily fakeable. Beta sign up pages? Yea, I could go make a beta sign up page for Dog Trainer Online but that doesn't make it a real game.

Aventurine has to show some realy footage of Darkfall; show some of the features that seperate Darkfall from the other games out there or let us play the game so we can find them for ourselves. Until that happens, I have every right to not believe in Darkfall.

I would ask that you both please stop debating argument styles.  Storm, I have a feeling if he doesn't understand your point yet, he probably never will.  That is one of the hardest parts of forums and trying to get people to see your view.  After a certain point you have to realize that someone might not see your point.  Something I'm guilty of not always doing.

I agree with your point that we need to prove darkfall exists besides a few fakeable videos and screenshots.

I think the main part of your posted I wanted to comment on was that the videos don't show this is a sandbox game.  Partially because thats hard to do.  How do you show people that you can spend your time being the worlds best crafter, or just running around in the woods looking for flowers or interesting locations.  Its easy to /say/ you have freedom but its much harder to /show/ that freedom.

Again, maybe I'm being idealistic, but I have high hopes that once beta starts and an NDA is lifted the game will gain a lot more creadability and understanding.  Hopefully once people start seeing the differences between all of the videos people posts and the things people can do in the game the sandbox element will become more clear.

Originally posted by Stormreaver

Originally posted by TdogSkal

How is that a logical arguement?  It is impossiable for me to prove Darkfall exist so the burden of proof is on proving its real?  Seriously please think about that and tell me that has any logic to it at all.
 

The burden of proof always lies on both sides, never on one side.  You must prove it does not exist and I must prove it does exist.   Just like in the American court system, You must prove I did the crime, while I must prove I did not do the crime.   Its simple logic.

With any good debate the burden of proof is on both sides.  If it is impossiable to proof that Darkfall exist then logically Darkfall does exist.   How hard is that to understand?

I have developer logs, Video's, Screenshots, Beta sign up pages, a publisher as my proof.  You only have your opinion as proof.  Logic againt states that I have the proof and you do not..... Their for its on you to disprove my proof which you cannot.

What you got next?

 

Argumentum ad ignorantiam (argument to ignorance): This is the fallacy of assuming something is true simply because it hasn't been proven false. For example, someone might argue that global warming is certainly occurring because nobody has demonstrated conclusively that it is not. But failing to prove the global warming theory false is not the same as proving it true.

From California State University

Please please check your facts. In fact, this website uses the same example you did: an American Courtroom. Ever heard of the phrase "Innocent until proven guilty?" I believe the key word there is "proven," implying that the burden of proof rests on the party trying to prove something into existence (the prosecution) as opposed to the party trying to prove something into unexistence (the defense). I cannot possibly prove Darkfall into unexistence, therefore you must prove it into existence.

What evidence do you provide? Developer logs? I could write those myself in my spare time, whether I have a game in development or not. Videos? I've seen claims that these were faked, but I consider them to be real. Even so, they offer no conclusive evidence that points to Darkfall. There is a few seconds (compiled) of UI footage, and absolutely nothing that would point to sandbox gameplay (which is what Darkfall is all about). Screenshots? Again, easily fakeable. Beta sign up pages? Yea, I could go make a beta sign up page for Dog Trainer Online but that doesn't make it a real game.

Aventurine has to show some realy footage of Darkfall; show some of the features that seperate Darkfall from the other games out there or let us play the game so we can find them for ourselves. Until that happens, I have every right to not believe in Darkfall.

Look I understand what you are saying but you do not understand what I am saying, we are both talking about the same thing....

Burden of proof:  "the ordinary rule is that "the necessity of proof lies with he who complains." For example, a person has to prove that someone is guilty (in a criminal case) or liable (in a civil case) depending on the allegations; a person is not required to prove his or her own innocence, it is rebuttably presumed"

Darkfall does not have to prove it is real, that is already presumed, therefor the burden of proof is on those that say it does not exist.

Again, In theory you are correct, you are presumed innocence until proven guility but in reality you must prove you are innocence while they are trying to prove you are guility.  Ever been in a court room or watch a trial on TV, you would understand the defence is trying to prove they are innocence.

"I would ask that you both please stop debating argument styles. Storm, I have a feeling if he doesn't understand your point yet, he probably never will. That is one of the hardest parts of forums and trying to get people to see your view. After a certain point you have to realize that someone might not see your point. Something I'm guilty of not always doing.

I agree with your point that we need to prove darkfall exists besides a few fakeable videos and screenshots.

I think the main part of your posted I wanted to comment on was that the videos don't show this is a sandbox game. Partially be