General Discussion

sanboxes dont need pvp.

But the game that i play and pay for, its going to have pvp. And i would bet a large sum of money to say that any sandbox with no pvp, would fail or have a very small playerbase.

Originally posted by HBlite

 

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Originally posted by airstrike

 

 A sandbox MMOG without PVP will fail,because there is no player interaction and such,plus half the freedom and concept of the sandbox MMOG is removed if you cant pvp,the main thing about pvp is that it allows you to make a name for yourself and build up from there.

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You just ate your own words, there are ton of successful MMOs and virtual worlds out there that have no PvP and very successful.

Project Utopia, Second Life, Sims Online, various free to play mmos to name a few.

You don't ever need PvP, it is like life you can fight, kill, or hurt someone but not without major consequences. So as a population as a whole it doesn't happen. It is called a society and an MMO can earn a society exactly like the real world. Think on that.

I am sorry but i dont think any of the games you mentioned could be qualified as successful xcept Second life (in a different way). The sandbox games which have been successful have had pvp in them: UO/EVE/SWG pre CU/NGE etc.

I like to enjoy all aspects of a game, from pvp to pve to crafting to leisure. But as others have pointed out the mere idea of a sandbox is the ability to do as you like. Pvp is a huge aspect of any sandbox game since it tends to run the economy. Ofc in such an environment certain penalties should apply to curve some serious PKing etc but id be very surprised if any company would invest in makinga sandbox game and not include pvp.

HBLite or whatever is incorrect; Second Life has pvp sims. To say otherwise would be seriously inaccurate. That's what makes SL a full blown sandbox; the players have the freedom to create open pvp sims. I've been in them. They use combat HUDs to detect damage. You can even bring your own weapons into the sims and use those from what I've noticed.

Originally posted by paulscott

Oh yes FFA PvP  with looting is not remotely a sandbox mechanic at all.  After all you're limiting people choices of how they'll play in the world, what gear they'll take, and how they'll willingly interact with people.  Just far too limiting, not sandbox at all.

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I disagree here. FFA PVP with Looting matches real life. And along with that, there are consequences that are player enforced (aka, players can be cops like we see in EVE Online).

If anything this matches real life perfectly. I have the freedom to choose my allies. I have the freedom to unally. I have the freedom to attack anyone. I have the freedom to become a hero and kill pirates. I have the freedom to become a thief, robbing victims.

How is that limiting? It's limitless. Player factions, RvR, etc is all possible within an open ruleset. It's simply the structure defined by the Players.

Originally posted by Meridion

Originally posted by Joker2240

Originally posted by Meridion

Just wanted to state that sandbox style gameplay does not need free-looting, it does not need free PvP, it does not even need PvP at all.

Sandboxes can work without actually ever engaging in any form of combat. The problem is that most of the sandbox-fanatics are also hardcore competetive players, people that WANT to be able to kill, burn down, plunder and loot everything.

But looking at the concepts themselves, PvP is NOT necessary for a free sandbox game! Just wanted to let you know ^^

Meridion

 

 Incase you did not realize the concept of a Sandbox game.  Sandbox literally means freedom.  Do what you want when you want.  So by taking peoples right to like kill someone does not make it a sandbox at all.  Makes it a very linear game.  Because than you are being forced down a certain path.  Sandbox allows players to take whatever path they want.  So be crafter, pve, and pvp.   It is also a basic fundemental of mmos.  To have some sort of PvP in it.  I have yet to see a succeful mmo that did not have pvp in it.

 

ALso by adding FFA is adding more realism to it.  Making it even more nonlinear.  So making it even more of a sandbox game.

Oh right that's the reason concord blows you up when you attack someone in high-sec. That's why you got heavy penalty when freekilling someone in midage-SWG...

A successful  game  that does not feature PvP = The Sims Online, Lord of the Rings Online (and don't you dare counting PvMP after beating the crap out of this 'PvMP is not PvP' bat), regular Everquest 2...

Sandbox means a free. multidirectional world. Would you say that real life is a sandbox? Most definitely I'd guess. Can you open full loot PvP in real life? Yea you can, but the consequences are so grave only some few very desperate or very dumb people actually follow this path. Still I can build my own house, start my own business, invent my own products - ACTUALLY, only the security of a law-regulated nation allows me to do this.

It's a complete misconception, for regular players "sandbox" comes with "free PvP" and scares them away. That's why nobody follows it, because the people speaking out for a sandbox game are literally die-hard PvP fans. The only way a sandbox gets a major success again is detaching the gore-gank-kill-war-fest mentality from the concept of creativity and player-run freedom. Violence NARROWS freedom down, it's a long known concept and you can see it in any violent conflict in the world.

ADD: Look at EvE, what CCP created there is a regulated empire where open PvP does practically not happen. And an area where full loot open PvP exists. Now see what happened there. A warlord-like, tribe-like alliance-politics system evolved that demands constant vigilance and precaution for a corp to survive. it cut EVERYTHING remotely related to art, culture or design, rendering anything not contributing to "getting ressources and being effectivy in combat" useless. That's why almost no women play this game, that's why no roleplaying actually happens on a broad scale, that's why theres no housing, no decorating... Sure, it's still a sandbox, concerning combat and economy, and ONLY combat and economy. And you call this freedom? right...

Meridion

Last time I checked my corp had female members, thats point #1

Pont #2: EVE outgrosses LOTRO & EQ2. Sims Online- I've never even seen that on an mmogchart so let me know if its over 250-300k subs. But wait- both LOTRO and EQ2 have pvp. EQ2 even has pvp servers with partial looting. Did you play EQ2??

#3 People get ganked in Empire all the time. Maybe people that frequent these forums might not know any better then to believe you but one quick look at EVE forums you will always see some pve'er crying about getting killed in high sec. Dont believe me; look at official forums. This is a daily whine we all have to endure. I really wish people would stiop trying to bend EVE to fit their argument. Everyone knows EVE Online is very PVP centric

#4 if you dont think people roleplay in eVE.... "Fly safe" <-- what do you think that is? EVE speak. Providence is an area FULL OF ROLEPLAYERS. They fight for Amarr Empire and established justice and safety for neuts in nullsec.

EVE is time based training. People have plenty of time to socialize and roleplay. And without realizing it EVE players roleplay all the time.

#5 Everything can be acquired with ISK. This is what makes it a sandbox. I am not forced to raid or do Arenas to acquire what I want. I can start an ingame business and buy what I want. I can kill for it if I want. I can mine for ISK if I want. Hell players have STARTED BANKS in EVE Online

Show me another MMO with player run banks??? Real banks where I can deposit ISK and get a return on my investment.

Show me another MMO (full blown) where I can buy stocks in Corporations

Show me another MMO where I can sit in a space hangar and acvquire everything I need without leaving a space station?

Please show me where I am being forced along a linear path to acquire what I want.

Just FWIW, the Sims Online was not a success. Indeed, it was one of the biggest flops in online gaming. And is now defunct.

Originally posted by Galaturc

So many people are scared of the possibility of a gankfest in these sandbox games where FFA full loot is promised, however that sentiment is a little bit exaggerated - and I strongly disagree.

A sandbox game (like Darkfall) can promise the freedom of FFA full loot and also supply enough tools to clans / realms the option to provide a secure / non-violent city / region for their non-PVP members / crafters / socialisers / role playing gamers. A clan can set rules / laws in their own region, prohibit players from PKing, or stealing - not by taking it out of the game mechanics and limit the freedom but by penalizing them harshly - banning them from the region, by giving direct orders to their PvP members, player patrols or NPC guards to kill on sight certain players, clans, races or hunt them down. There will be very strong clans that care about their economy and about these non-PVP players. Remember, Darkfall is planned to be "one character per server", can you imagine how valuable these crafters / traders will be for an organized clan caring not just about PvP, reputation and power struggle but also maintaining a good economy? Maintaining a good economy for a clan - claims Aventurine - will be very critical for a clans survival in Darkfall.

This is how developers stated it will work in Darkfall:

There will be over 90 clan cities that can be built and improved, in which that clan will also control a whole region which includes some resources in the cities close proximity - farms, mines, forest, etc. Therefore, several cities will be more valuable and in demand, and more competitive clans will fight over them. Their crafters / traders can freely and safely use these resources. Every player can build their own settlements, houses either in or out of these regions - the fact is, a region protected by a strong clan is much more safer than any place on the map due to forementioned FFA full loot system. The clan's responsibility is to maintain the protection and safety of the regions inhabitants so that in return they will get valuable service (from crafters and traders) or collect taxes.

Darkfall is just going to be a fantasy version of EVE with isolated pockets of empire space instead of one contiguous 'safe' zone. 

The OP is right.  Sandbox games do not require actual combat at all.  A sandbox game doesnt even require avatars.  Its the preconceptions you have about MMOs that dont enable you to see that.  A lot of posters in this thread are also unable to imagine something different it seems.  Why does every game require you to be in competition for resources that will be used to craft weapons for pvp?  Why does a game even need resources?  A sandbox MMO can be something as simple as a chat room where players get 30 seconds to draw a picture, then compare that picture with other people and get vote on who drew the best work of art.  Somebody else can then step forwards and suggest some different rules, and anybody can draw whatever the hell they want at any time.  There need be no reward other than the fun, no competition other than the interest to see what other people invented.  That would still be a sandbox game - a game with no linear progression of content.   It may not be a populat game, but its still a game, its still played online with multiple people, and its still a sandbox. 

Originally posted by strongaxe

Sandbox = players freedom.

How can you have player freedom without being able to attack anyone?

Hmm,

Freedom to attack anyone without consequence = Anarchy

Sandbox = Anarchy.

QED.

I agree with the OP in principal that unregulated PvP is not necessary for a sandbox, but if there are going to be opposing realms/cultures then there would probably need to some form of organised PvP to simulate competition for territory.

The problem isn't PvP as a concept, its the mentality of people that get their kicks from trying to ruin someone else's day. In the real world murder is considered one of the worst possible crimes in almost all cultures, apart from when it is called 'War' then it becomes more of a team sport.

If we were trying to mirror the real world where death is permanent, a player who constantly ganked weaker players would effectively be booted from the game as his/her characters were jailed for life or execute