Darkfall

Originally posted by AnsgarIsen

Originally posted by Praetoriani

Psychology as it is today is an empirical science, the vague theories of Freud, while fun, do not have many followers anymore today. I was wondering what experience, if any, you have with psychology and/or psychiatry? You see, people posting vague descriptions of what they think is happening in the psyche really give modern day psychology a bad name. You have no idea of the amount of people I talk to who think psychology is just a bunch of philosophical bullcrap and endless talking about nothing. Not that I don't think there is any wiggle room left, but maybe you could call it like 'the philosophy' of RPGs.

I think you're actually stepping into exactly the trap you're trying to warn about. Narrowing Psychlogy to some empirical science is far more bound to give it a bad name than any maybe naive approach to someones own theories in an open discussion.
No matter if we're discussing Pschology or Sociology, The empirical approach is merely one facet of what's some widespread field of approach in permanent discurse. Empirical science is not an indicator for modern science as opposed to historical approaches, not in the least.

When the OP merely states his own little theory after obviously having some thoughts here, he's well interfering with aspects that belong into Psychology, Thus applying it in the way he did (I don't see anything like him highlighting his thoughts as proven) is fair enough in my opion.

As soon as you're touching psychological aspects in a discussion, you're indeed moving in the range of this science's facets.

 

More on topic, the basic idea is very interesting. While the reasons for overly bashing a game that in no way can do any harm to you will have a multitude of reasons, there quite obviously is a lot speaking for this theory as being amongst those.

Also, I don't really understand why some people instantanously get annoyed by a statement like the OP made. I openly admit I did and do enjoy both, rather linear games as well as the sandbox approach at times. It's correct, sometimes you just feel the need of just mindlessly gaming something that doesn't put any extra strain on brain and nerves while at some other times, you might look for something you can immerse yourself a bit more into.
There is nothing wrong with both approaches, as they will indeed very much be influeced by how your life is looking like, just as much as any other form of preference.
Why does that, however, have to make a fraction of gamers feel the need to bash on what is not their style. For several reasons I don't like WAR, it's simply isn't for me. Why would I go and attack the game, and, even more so, those who are into it in any form? It's those that feel that urge that the OP addressed and some individual thoughts about to share them here.

Some nice thoughts, a nice post and, as a result, a generally nice discussion. What more can you expect?

Thank you Ansgarisen, you definitely understood the spirit of my post.  I would be disturbed if everyone simply agreed with my original theory, especially since even I don't think it is 100% accurate, it is simply an idea I thought was interesting and possibly had some, and perhaps significant, merit.  It seems all the more relavent given the excessive bashing this particular game has endured over the years, along with the fact that years ago sandbox style games were extremely popular and that that preference has all but abandoned the gaming industry.  There are numerous reaons for this offered in the various replies to my original post, and they all seem to carry a degree of merit, some more than others in my opinion.

@praetoriani

Glad you liked the overall idea.  I see what you are saying, and I wouldn't want to give an industry or science a "bad name," but ultimately every science or industry's value is proven on the merits of its product.  Even psychology will see cash flow in and out and an expansion of its size and significance based on its results, not based on the semantic labeling issues of laypersons.  On a side note, you suggest that the proper title may be more along the lines of "The Philosphy of RPGs."  I'd point out that I don't have a Ph.D. in philosophy either, so I run the same risk of offending someone who feels I've given philosphy a bad name.  I hope you see where I'm going with this - pretty soon all "labels" are off the table.

@keeper2000

It's fine.  Agreed.  I'm not claiming any special knowledge on the discussion, just putting ideas out there to provoke some thoughts on it.  I've been really surprised at how sophisticated the responses have been on this forum, while on the darkfall forum (I posted it there as well out of curiosity) the replies are far more bland and less thoughtful.  I had actually expected the opposite.

And to the general arguement people are making that I'm creating a simplified dichotomy out of complex players who often play multiple different types of games, etc.  I definitely agree that the whole player base is much more complicated than "sanbox" or "linear."  Remember that I'm only talking about those who *prefer* linear over sandbox *because of,* essentially, the increased play structure of linear games.  The group I'm talking about, in addition to that, also seems to excibit a viceral hatred towards sandbox games in general - Darkfall in particular - leading them to spend a great deal of time attempting to destroy the game's reputation well before its release.  It's an odd human behavior to go out of one's way to attack a game you don't even intend to be a part of, hence I am trying to understand why they do so.  Those are the qualities of the population I am analyzing, and if they do not exhibit all of those behaviors, then my original post is not meant to apply to them.  Anyone who has a better explanation of this behavior is welcome to offer it, and many have already expanded on my original post in their replies, but none have offered a totally unrelated explanation, at least not in my eyes.  While I do not believe I am 100% correct in my analysis, I believe that I am close enough to a correct explanation (along with several of the replies) that a totally unrelated explanation would be off the mark entirely.

Originally posted by Squitty

       That's a very interesting thought Andromedus1.  I've never really thought about it like that before, but now that you've brought that up it has got me thinking.

       I think it takes a very different gamer to play a sandbox game rather than a linear game like most are today.  We are sort of shifting towards the linear games because:
 

No one wants to lose their loot - Better loot is fun to find, but if a game gets too item dependant then people don't want to lose their items they've "worked" so hard to get.  Which is a problem in itself because if the items were fun to get/craft in the first place this wouldn't be a problem

No one wants to "waste" time - Everything now has to be to the point or it's a waste of time.  Many people require teleporting or something along those lines because there's no fun in walking, there's nothing to see and discover that could be exciting.  If the game world was rich and full of surprises and secrets it would lead for a much more enjoyable travel.

Everyone wants to level up fast - Everyone needs to level up as fast as possible. why?...... well so you can get to the next level of course! This is why level based games are complained about so much.  They just require you to put in tons of time before you can get to the fun parts of the game.  And why? To hide the fact that there isn't enough content in the game to keep you busy if you weren't just blindly leveling.

     I could go on and on.  I hope I didn't go too far off topic.  I think my point is that maybe it's not the psychology thats determining which games people decide to play, but the way MMO's are evolving over time (in the wrong direction in my opinion) thats forcing the players into enjoying a different type of gaming experience for lack of any other choice.

Pretty clueless post with respect to gaming in my opinion, having played MMOs of all types I would say if it is well coded then it is not an issue.

No one want's to loose their loot, its a game; loot will be fun to get in DFO but developing a decent charachter will be even more fun.

No one wan'ts to waste time, if you have a very limited mindset then DFO may be an issue. Some of us know how to have fun and aren't reliant on that next piece of loot . All in game time is a learning experience and if you can't appreciate that not sure you understand how to have fun.

Everyone wants to level fast, Uhm again not true... longevity/complexity , community and variety.

I guess some people can see no further than their own selfishness, and need to feel a false sense of acheivment sad really.

When you say we don't include me I am nobodys fool.

Andromedus1, thanks for this thread. You started with a well thought out proposal, and continued (along with many other posters) with thoughtful and insightful discourse. On top of it all, it's an interesting read, with which I can relate.

Originally posted by Isane
 

Pretty clueless post with respect to gaming in my opinion, having played MMOs of all types I would say if it is well coded then it is not an issue.

No one want's to loose their loot, its a game; loot will be fun to get in DFO but developing a decent charachter will be even more fun.

No one wan'ts to waste time, if you have a very limited mindset then DFO may be an issue. Some of us know how to have fun and aren't reliant on that next piece of loot . All in game time is a learning experience and if you can't appreciate that not sure you understand how to have fun.

Everyone wants to level fast, Uhm again not true... longevity/complexity , community and variety.

I guess some people can see no further than their own selfishness, and need to feel a false sense of acheivment sad really.

When you say we don't include me I am nobodys fool. 

I think you mis-interpreted my post.

You defended DFO from my comments but I wasn't referring to DFO, I was referring to the problems many gamers have in games today, and why linear games don't work.  I'm hoping DFO solves these problems and is the MMO I've been waiting for.  But I'm very skeptical, so I won't praise it until it's proven.

But you expressed exactly how I feel games should be played/enjoyed in your post. That was my point heh.

Hey Andromedus1, nice post. I have thought about the phycology aspect aswell and im glad that you extended on my post.

Some people may read the op's post and think hes over analyzing, alot of people tend to diregard posts when talking in depth about games. I myself am very much into games and have been since i was very young, and do believe there actually is a certain phycology to gaming patterns etc.

Anyway,

I would definatly agree and believe that in general people, especially the younger generation atleast, prefer to take a path where there are less situations of not knowing what to do and prefer the linear path of a themepark mmorpg like WoW for example.

Think about it how many people do you know who dont have a real interest in their life? They work but probably dont perticularly enjoy it, they dont have any lifelong hobbies that they actually really enjoy, they cant make the decision of what they themselves want to do or explore in their life or they simply dont know. (Ofcourse this last sentence can quite easily be compared to the young generation especially the ones at school)

I can tell you there are ALOT of people like this who dont think for themselves what really interests them, or atleast explore the world of information to find what interests them. Now obviously real life is alot more indepth than a game but its the same principle when it comes to a sandbox mmorpg because you have to think for yourself what you wish to do and what interests you the most. What kind of role interests you the most and that which you wish to follow.

To be honest i think theres alot of people that dont perticularly know which kind of role they wish to take, what their real interests are and prefer to go down the road where mistakes and wrong turns cant be made often rather than the adventurous road of mystery and self (character) exploration.

The Majority like objectives given to them (which is why most people in real life like a static day to day lifestyle, the same as a linear mmorpg) rather than finding which objectives interest them the most and which they would like to uptake.

This is just a possible reason why people prefer the themepark mmorpg's to sanbox mmorpg and to me it makes quite a bit of sense.

I think for the people who like to explore, who like to create there own objectives and acomplish them, who like to find their interests and try to excel in the area would really prefer a sandbox mmorpg than a linear one and should give it a try, you wont be dissapointed with the extra freedom.

You may want to take a good look at human history, as well as the psycological angle.

As well as our current state of affairs.

Firstly all the exploration has been done from a terrestrial perspective(or near as). I daresay, there are those gamers out there that would have loved to have trekked through an untamed wilderness, not knowing what dangers lay ahead, be it from native fauna or the tribe of pygmys watching from the shoreline licking their lips and rubbing their bellies. (Read as sandbox types).

Then there are the more socially integrated types that would rather go to the safari park and look at nature from a safe distance.

Truth be told adventuring/pioneering types are rare. Maybe this is more what we are seeing in regards sandbox vs themepark worlds in terms of popularity.

Originally posted by KhaelSan

Well I am a pvp'er who likes to compete vs other people - so thats the only goal there is in WOW for me.

Then you have admitted it is more a problem on your side.  You have intentionally restricted your scope of enjoyment of the game.  You can say WoW is not built completely around your specific way of playing.  Bashing the game or the gamers, however, is totally unjustified.