General Discussion

(or Bringing the random number generator back to gaming)

When I played my first MMO, I had a lot of crazy, magical ideas in my head. I didn't really know what to expect from the game, so my brain fed off of thousands of fantasy and sci-fi movies and books for ideas.  One of my guildmates was right along with me as a new MMO player and we would bounce delusions off of one another until we made the game 1000 times better in our minds, than what had actually been coded.  Yes, we actually saw, heard and experienced things in the game that were not really there.  No, I am not a loon.  I later learned that not only were many of my experiences completely imagined, but that many of them were just game bugs that my mind ran wild with.

Some of you will find this as funny as I do now looking back on it, but I also think there is something to be learned here about the future of mmo's if my thoughts can be translated to zeros and ones. So the game in question was SWG.  What delusions did we have?  Well, like everyone else in the early days of SWG, we had no real clue how to unlock our Jedi slot.  Most everyone wanted to do this, and the whole process was a complete mystery.  This was part of the magic.  My friend and I would always think, as we leveled and played the game, that we were slowly unlocking powers in our toons.  Powers beyond just granted by levels and stats. 

We would travel to mystical places and imagine being able to see farther as if we were granted powers from the land or spirits.  We would search around for the tiniest of clues to figure out how to progress our force path, and we felt the steps we had taken previously in the game had helped us to see things other players could not see. We would have graphics gliches (not really understood by us at the time) that would allow us to suddenly see through fog, or even buildings.  We would kill mobs  that we should *never* have been able to conquer with our feeble skills, again because of game bugs.  We would hear things.  We would see things.  Mind you, we were not purposely setting out to run wild with our imaginations.  We actually thought the game was so complex that random things like these would happen to you to let you know you were on the right path.  You were smarter and better than other players who also seek this path. Our imaginations running wild was a marvelous side affect of not really knowing what was 'normal' or 'possible' in an mmo.

As time went by and the secret of how to become a jedi in swg was revealed as a very simple formula of holocrons, profession grinding and badges that could be quickly duplicated by any lowly mortal.  The magic faded away, the mysterious world became a video game and stopped being a magical home away from home.  Luckily swg had enough depth and a fantastic community to keep us busy for a couple more years, so the transition from dream land to 'awesome, but limited gaming' was a soft landing.

I've often thought of that magic my friend and I experienced, but never posted it online until now.  It was no doubt enhanced by the two of us having the same kinds of thoughts, ideas and discussions about the world we were exploring, due to our blissful ignorance of game mechanics and limits. My question to gamers and game devs alike is; where has all the randomness and mystery gone in these games?  Why can't we create some game systems that allow for the random affects and experiences such as the ones I imagined?  Why must everything be a discoverable pattern that is then duplicated and posted online for everyone to read about and execute ad nauseum?  In short, how can we breath life, mystery and adventure into these worlds?  Is anyone working on truly dynamic content for mmos yet?

The last mystery and romance in any MMO died years ago with pre-CU SWG. Many of us are still waiting for it to return someday, and when it does that will signal a turning point in the industry, perhaps the start of a new era?

I'll keeping on playing new releases until something happens, but until now it's pretty much all been dross since SWG was butchered by Smed. Gonna try Jumpgate Eveloution next.

The problem with MMOs is that they are run by non-creatives (yep, believe it or not) - mostly "developers" are a bunch of coder-crunchers following a "vision" set by the money-plowing management - who are obsessed more with $-signs than creativity.

These "devs" mostly follow a cliched Kill_X/courier_boy design model (no brain-strain required) - and the management has neither vision nor passion to dispute nor lead the devs by the nose to the creative side.

Typical MMO worlds:

Purty zone.

Throw in Mobs with a LEVEL.

Quest givers to: Kill_X / Courier.

That's it. You have WoW clone!

Sadly mystery and romance - very valid genres - have been overlooked. The AGENCY *might* have elements of mystery (like No One Lives Forever) but we shall see.

Expect some Romance-tones in SW:TOR - as Bioware tends to create some emotional tones with its henchmen.

Yeah I know what you mean.  Just a few simple things like leaving some rare surprises in unexpected places or creating a system with some mystery attached like what we thought the jedi system would be go so far in making the game much more immersive and enjoyable.  It's not even that hard to create this feeling.  I'm always surprised so many devs fail to realize this.

You remove the "mystery and romance" when you go into a game prejudging it and trying to make it live up to some unrealistic expectation.

Play them and enjoy each game for what they are and not what they are not. Stop trying to insert your SWG expectation on everything and maybe you will enjoy a game again. SWG wasn't "alll that", it had some serious issues back in the day.

There are several very good MMO's out there, stop trying to fit square pegs into round holes and play each game for what it is and stop trying to find what it isn't.

The thing about "mysteries" is you eventually solve them.

the thing about this thead is that it could be called "Give me back my childhood" and it would serve more or less the same purpose.

OP: You, by your own account, had a great magical time in SWG, that time is now gone. Like it happen when you grow up from child to adult, certain things simply do not work anymore. Yes, you can mantain your inner child, take the world with an optimistic smile on your face and that is great, I reccomend you keep that, but the actual experiences of being a child and discovering a new colorful world are mostly gone.

Even if you will get new experiences (ie: new MMorpgs), you will look to them with a total different angle, you are a veteran now, you have more knowledge, you know how these games work and so on.

I have two advices for you then.

1) Look back at your memories with joy. Cheerish your memories of your first MMos and do not try to re-live them in the other games, cause that will not work and will just make you more frustrated about them.

2) Realize that and approach new mmorpgs aware of this change in you. There is still possibility of having a lot of fun here, it is just different.

Good luck and have a nice day.

Originally posted by Volkmar

the thing about this thead is that it could be called "Give me back my childhood" and it would serve more or less the same purpose.

OP: You, by your own account, had a great magical time in SWG, that time is now gone. Like it happen when you grow up from child to adult, certain things simply do not work anymore. Yes, you can mantain your inner child, take the world with an optimistic smile on your face and that is great, I reccomend you keep that, but the actual experiences of being a child and discovering a new colorful world are mostly gone.

Even if you will get new experiences (ie: new MMorpgs), you will look to them with a total different angle, you are a veteran now, you have more knowledge, you know how these games work and so on.

I have two advices for you then.

1) Look back at your memories with joy. Cheerish your memories of your first MMos and do not try to re-live them in the other games, cause that will not work and will just make you more frustrated about them.

2) Realize that and approach new mmorpgs aware of this change in you. There is still possibility of having a lot of fun here, it is just different.

Good luck and have a nice day

This is the sad truth. SWG was my first MMO too and due to my noobieness and the lack of information about the mechanics of the game (unlike now where you can read about everything in wow for example on allakhazam) it felt huge and mysterious.

This will never return. The one thing I hope for is a game that is fun and accessible like WoW and still has much more sandboxes. Actually I think the best way to please us "Mystery-seekers" would be if the major MMOs out there (EQ2, WoW , Lotro mainly) would add a good amount of sandbox (i.e. more detailed housing, crafting with more randomness etc.) to their game.

Even though I doubt any game will bring back that feeling of vastness and exploration, I am happy I experienced it back in the time ^^

Originally posted by MindTrigger

(or Bringing the random number generator back to gaming)

When I played my first MMO, I had a lot of crazy, magical ideas in my head. I didn't really know what to expect from the game, so my brain fed off of thousands of fantasy and sci-fi movies and books for ideas.  One of my guildmates was right along with me as a new MMO player and we would bounce delusions off of one another until we made the game 1000 times better in our minds, than what had actually been coded.  Yes, we actually saw, heard and experienced things in the game that were not really there.  No, I am not a loon.  I later learned that not only were many of my experiences completely imagined, but that many of them were just game bugs that my mind ran wild with.

Some of you will find this as funny as I do now looking back on it, but I also think there is something to be learned here about the future of mmo's if my thoughts can be translated to zeros and ones. So the game in question was SWG.  What delusions did we have?  Well, like everyone else in the early days of SWG, we had no real clue how to unlock our Jedi slot.  Most everyone wanted to do this, and the whole process was a complete mystery.  This was part of the magic.  My friend and I would always think, as we leveled and played the game, that we were slowly unlocking powers in our toons.  Powers beyond just granted by levels and stats. 

We would travel to mystical places and imagine being able to see farther as if we were granted powers from the land or spirits.  We would search around for the tiniest of clues to figure out how to progress our force path, and we felt the steps we had taken previously in the game had helped us to see things other players could not see. We would have graphics gliches (not really understood by us at the time) that would allow us to suddenly see through fog, or even buildings.  We would kill mobs  that we should *never* have been able to conquer with our feeble skills, again because of game bugs.  We would hear things.  We would see things.  Mind you, we were not purposely setting out to run wild with our imaginations.  We actually thought the game was so complex that random things like these would happen to you to let you know you were on the right path.  You were smarter and better than other players who also seek this path. Our imaginations running wild was a marvelous side affect of not really knowing what was 'normal' or 'possible' in an mmo.

As time went by and the secret of how to become a jedi in swg was revealed as a very simple formula of holocrons, profession grinding and badges that could be quickly duplicated by any lowly mortal.  The magic faded away, the mysterious world became a video game and stopped being a magical home away from home.  Luckily swg had enough depth and a fantastic community to keep us busy for a couple more years, so the transition from dream land to 'awesome, but limited gaming' was a soft landing.

I've often thought of that magic my friend and I experienced, but never posted it online until now.  It was no doubt enhanced by the two of us having the same kinds of thoughts, ideas and discussions about the world we were exploring, due to our blissful ignorance of game mechanics and limits. My question to gamers and game devs alike is; where has all the randomness and mystery gone in these games?  Why can't we create some game systems that allow for the random affects and experiences such as the ones I imagined?  Why must everything be a discoverable pattern that is then duplicated and posted online for everyone to read about and execute ad nauseum?  In short, how can we breath life, mystery and adventure into these worlds?  Is anyone working on truly dynamic content for mmos yet?

I feel a lot with you in this. My MMO career started with SWG and I know what you speak of. The mystery and romance wasnt so much in the game itself, but it was us who brought it with us into it. That was possible because the vast open world of SWG was such a good projection area and of course the Star Wars movies and books had fed our dreams. So it were ideal circumstances which can not just so replicated. 

Also there is one thing to say I feel is important. The greater part of mystery and romance was brought with us into it,