General Discussion

Like many people who hang around here, I am a wanderer.  I move from game to game looking for one that will have more to offer than 90% combat, 10% everything else.  I am an swg refugee who played for years before the nge, and I just can't believe no one is trying to make an open game like this anymore. I'm going to reference swg quite a bit in this post, so if that will make some of you throw up in your mouths,  you can go ahead and move on now. These are not the droids you are looking for.

Everywhere I go I see the same things being posted.  People, like me, who want more depth in their MMO than just killing stuff.  We want a game where crafting, resource gathering and trading is nearly as robust as the rest of the game.   We want huge open environments to explore, and we want to put our houses and shops *in the game world*.  We want social hubs where people can hang out and entertain, chat, and just unplug from combat/crafting for a while.

P L A Y E R  H O U S I N G

Look at the current state of instanced player housing in games. Talk about missing the point entirely.  The only people I know who think current instanced versions of housing are somewhat cool, are the ones who have never seen in-world housing.  My current game is lotro, and many people just use their homes for the storage box that comes with them.  I don't even care to visit my own home, let alone someone elses.  Anyone who played SWG can remember how much fun it was to happen upon a home with a cool sign out front, then go inside to see how the owner's imagination and the freedom to decorate with nearly every looted item in the game ran wild.  I  considered visiting homes, guild halls and shops to be a HUGE part of the game, and I really enjoyed all the themes people came up with.  Today's instanced housing is a hollow shell, an afterthought which really does little or nothing to enhance the game let alone spark imagination or creation. Most new games don't even allow you to *craft* in your own home.

C R A F T I N G 

Seriously, what is the deal with crafting these days?  The word 'hollow' pops into my head again.  Resource gathering is boring at best, and dirt simple.  The complex system swg had where crafting resources had moving/changing stats that affected crafting outcome was friggin' genius.  The experimenting system along with things like krayt tissues and other enhancements to boost stats was also ground-breaking.  Crafting in SWG was so deep and interesting, that it was a completely seperete mmo all by itself when combined with trading.  Don't believe me?  Ask all the people who rolled crafting toons that did zero combat.  While I had up to 3 paid accounts (at $15 each) so that I could craft and play combat, I knew lots of people who joined the game just for crafting (or entertaining). They never rolled combat, and never cared to.  *THAT* is how you know you have made a good crafting system.

Again, trading was incredible.  Yes, as the game died down it became a tedious pain in the arse to seek out items, but that again is a lesson we can learn from.  SWG didn't introduce global vendor searches until late in the game's death.  I loved traveling to shops for many reasons, and I really enjoyed the commerce relationships I made with crafters that often became friendships.  I would contract hunt for some of them, and they would give me discounts.  How many of you old swg players had certain crafters you would always deal with?  How many would get coupons and stuff via game mail, or special heads-up deals on new armor or weapon runs?  Serisously, what game today offers this sort of rich social aspect in crafting/trading?  None of them.  Crafting today is tacked on as an afterthough, a feature list bullet point,  and it couldn't be much more boring.

While I appreciate many people like the central simplicity of the auction house systems in modern mmo's, I can assure you they take a lot away from the game's social potential.  Who even looks to see which crafter made items now?  What difference does it make when the resource system is flat, and all crafters can make the same items as all the other crafters with little or no difference in stats?  I think auction houses have gone a long way to destroy depth in these games.  A point I made above is an important one as well.  We should be able to craft in our own homes in ALL of these games.  This makes your player housing at least somewhat useful, whereas now they are simply a novelty no one really cares about save a few people.  Even if you do put time into your instanced house, who's going to see it?  What visitors will you have?

S O C I A L  H U B S

Lastly, I want to talk about social hubs.  Where have they all gone?  yes, you get groups of people standing around mailboxes and auction houses these days, but this is no substitute for a truly social area that gives actual benefit such as heals or buffs.  Entertainers in swg were another breakthrough gameplay idea that was a success. I remember plenty of times when I would be sitting at home coding, not really able to play swg, but I could sit in a cantina and chat a little while I worked at night.  I had some fantastic conversations in there, and built new friendships with people I would go on to quest /adventure with, or become guildmates.  I didn't do much entertaining myself, so I'm sure there is even more depth to it that other entertainers can talk about here, but I still found them to be a key part of my game, and I really enjoyed it.

----

What it all comes down to is that modern games are completely leaving out social depth.  You can say all the bad things you want about SWG, and I will agree with many of them, but one thing you have to acknowledge was that they created a depth in game play that no other game has been able to come close to.  Yes, this was probably a large part of the game's demise.  It was too ambitious across all aspects of design, and therefore hard for the devs to keep up with and balance.  However, anyone who played during its short peak will tell you that they had some of the best times in gaming they have ever had, and probably will ever have again if this trend continues of making mmos theme park treadmills that turn away from social activity. This despite the game's obvious glitches and shortcomings.

There are many things I have left out here.  When I sit down and take stock of all I was able to do in swg, it really still blows my mind.  If you put the freedom of swg down on paper and stack it against anything that has come out since, you have to laugh (or cry) a little. I have played many mmo's since leaving swg, and I am always left with a lackluster feeling, especially when I wish to seek out new friends and social encounters. I know there are many players out there who could care less about social or crafting features, but then you may not know what you are missing.  Ask anyone what the best part of SWG was and they will tell you it was the COMMUNITY of players that made it golden.  That community was the result of having non-combat gaming concepts as rich as the combat was.

For those of you who will say that I am an swg whiner, who never got over it, you couldn't be more wrong.  I am over swg, but what I am not over is the wide range of gameplay options it gave me.  We seem to be stuck in an endless groundhog day of WoW formula clones.  Fine, that's what makes money, but is anyone making games for the love AND money anymore?  Where has all the creativity, heart and pride gone?  Just say no to McMMO's.

Originally posted by MindTrigger

Like many people who hang around here, I am a wanderer.  I move from game to game looking for one that will have more to offer than 90% combat, 10% everything else.  I am an swg refugee who played for years before the nge, and I just can't believe no one is trying to make an open game like this anymore. I'm going to reference swg quite a bit in this post, so if that will make some of you throw up in your mouths,  you can go ahead and move on now. These are not the droids you are looking for.

Everywhere I go I see the same things being posted.  People, like me, who want more depth in their MMO than just killing stuff.  We want a game where crafting, resource gathering and trading is nearly as robust as the rest of the game.   We want huge open environments to explore, and we want to put our houses and shops *in the game world*.  We want social hubs where people can hang out and entertain, chat, and just unplug from combat/crafting for a while.

P L A Y E R  H O U S I N G

Look at the current state of instanced player housing in games. Talk about missing the point entirely.  The only people I know who think current instanced versions of housing are somewhat cool, are the ones who have never seen in-world housing.  My current game is lotro, and many people just use their homes for the storage box that comes with them.  I don't even care to visit my own home, let alone someone elses.  Anyone who played SWG can remember how much fun it was to happen upon a home with a cool sign out front, then go inside to see how the owner's imagination and the freedom to decorate with nearly every looted item in the game ran wild.  I  considered visiting homes, guild halls and shops to be a HUGE part of the game, and I really enjoyed all the themes people came up with.  Today's instanced housing is a hollow shell, an afterthought which really does little or nothing to enhance the game let alone spark imagination or creation. Most new games don't even allow you to *craft* in your own home.

C R A F T I N G 

Seriously, what is the deal with crafting these days?  The word 'hollow' pops into my head again.  Resource gathering is boring at best, and dirt simple.  The complex system swg had where crafting resources had moving/changing stats that affected crafting outcome was friggin' genius.  The experimenting system along with things like krayt tissues and other enhancements to boost stats was also ground-breaking.  Crafting in SWG was so deep and interesting, that it was a completely seperete mmo all by itself when combined with trading.  Don't believe me?  Ask all the people who rolled crafting toons that did zero combat.  While I had up to 3 paid accounts (at $15 each) so that I could craft and play combat, I knew lots of people who joined the game just for crafting (or entertaining). They never rolled combat, and never cared to.  *THAT* is how you know you have made a good crafting system.

Again, trading was incredible.  Yes, as the game died down it became a tedious pain in the arse to seek out items, but that again is a lesson we can learn from.  SWG didn't introduce global vendor searches until late in the game's death.  I loved traveling to shops for many reasons, and I really enjoyed the commerce relationships I made with crafters that often became friendships.  I would contract hunt for some of them, and they would give me discounts.  How many of you old swg players had certain crafters you would always deal with?  How many would get coupons and stuff via game mail, or special heads-up deals on new armor or weapon runs?  Serisously, what game today offers this sort of rich social aspect in crafting/trading?  None of them.  Crafting today is tacked on as an afterthough, a feature list bullet point,  and it couldn't be much more boring.

While I appreciate many people like the central simplicity of the auction house systems in modern mmo's, I can assure you they take a lot away from the game's social potential.  Who even looks to see which crafter made items now?  What difference does it make when the resource system is flat, and all crafters can make the same items as all the other crafters with little or no difference in stats?  I think auction houses have gone a long way to destroy depth in these games.  A point I made above is an important one as well.  We should be able to craft in our own homes in ALL of these games.  This makes your player housing at least somewhat useful, whereas now they are simply a novelty no one really cares about save a few people.  Even if you do put time into your instanced house, who's going to see it?  What visitors will you have?

S O C I A L  H U B S

Lastly, I want to talk about social hubs.  Where have they all gone?  yes, you get groups of people standing around mailboxes and auction houses these days, but this is no substitute for a truly social area that gives actual benefit such as heals or buffs.  Entertainers in swg were another breakthrough gameplay idea that was a success. I remember plenty of times when I would be sitting at home coding, not really able to play swg, but I could sit in a cantina and chat a little while I worked at night.  I had some fantastic conversations in there, and built new friendships with people I would go on to quest /adventure with, or become guildmates.  I didn't do much entertaining myself, so I'm sure there is even more depth to it that other entertainers can talk about here, but I still found them to be a key part of my game, and I really enjoyed it.

----

What it all comes down to is that modern games are completely leaving out social depth.  You can say all the bad things you want about SWG, and I will agree with many of them, but one thing you have to acknowledge was that they created a depth in game play that no other game has been able to come close to.  Yes, this was probably a large part of the game's demise.  It was too ambitious across all aspects of design, and therefore hard for the devs to keep up with and balance.  However, anyone who played during its short peak will tell you that they had some of the best times in gaming they have ever had, and probably will ever have again if this trend continues of making mmos theme park treadmills that turn away from social activity. This despite the game's obvious glitches and shortcomings.

There are many things I have left out here.  When I sit down and take stock of all I was able to do in swg, it really still blows my mind.  If you put the freedom of swg down on paper and stack it against anything that has come out since, you have to laugh (or cry) a little. I have played many mmo's since leaving swg, and I am always left with a lackluster feeling, especially when I wish to seek out new friends and social encounters. I know there are many players out there who could care less about social or crafting features, but then you may not know what you are missing.  Ask anyone what the best part of SWG was and they will tell you it was the COMMUNITY of players that made it golden.  That community was the result of having non-combat gaming concepts as rich as the combat was.

For those of you who will say that I am an swg whiner, who never got over it, you couldn't be more wrong.  I am over swg, but what I am not over is the wide range of gameplay options it gave me.  We seem to be stuck in an endless groundhog day of WoW formula clones.  Fine, that's what makes money, but is anyone making games for the love AND money anymore?  Where has all the creativity, heart and pride gone?  Just say no to McMMO's.

 

There are a lot of us that long for these type of games again to grace our presence someday, but for that to happen we would have to have devs and investors to stop using the same old tired formula and take a fucking risk and do something new and different. Also studios need to start making games aimed towards certain age levels and not to everyone... kiddies for WOW - Pre-CU SWG for adults.... an example. Till then Im afraid we will see nothing but more POS themepark games and Korean grinders.

Great post.

And the failures of AC II, AOC, WAR & all these fake cookie cutter mmorpg's will eventually make the tables turn .

Agreed so tired of EQ clones.

Isnt it amazing that a game like SWG with 200,000 to 300,000 subs (at its peak) felt so much more populated and alive because of the social aspects engineered into the game. Current games with populations way beyond what SWG had dont 'feel' as populated.

SWG was ground breaking. When it went live it had problems for sure but the foundation was there, then SOE in its infinate wisdom turned the game around 180 degrees and drove into a clone of the same ol' craptastic crap we have today.

Someday, hopefully, someone will do a sandbox right!

Originally posted by VolatileMan

Isnt it amazing that a game like SWG with 200,000 to 300,000 subs (at its peak) felt so much more populated and alive because of the social aspects engineered into the game. Current games with populations way beyond what SWG had dont 'feel' as populated.

SWG was ground breaking. When it went live it had problems for sure but the foundation was there, then SOE in its infinate wisdom turned the game around 180 degrees and drove into a clone of the same ol' craptastic crap we have today.

Someday, hopefully, someone will do a sandbox right!

 

lots of wisdom in this post.

People who were raised on WoW dont understand why some of us long for a game like this right now