General Discussion

Originally posted by PatchDay

Originally posted by DeserttFoxx

Originally posted by Grunties

Originally posted by DeserttFoxx 

I am not supporting dumbing down RPGs, i am advocating the ability to have all the options availible, which is what WoW does, which is what i was pointing out, the game has an easy mode, it also has a decent challenge for those people who want it, and while i dont find raiding to be difficult there are far more people who do, there for it holds them.

If you read my blog, you would know my position hasnt changed.

 

You are advocating the ability to have all the options available by eliminating all of the other options but WoW? All the games you want gone and have been posting about are providing those options. Why do all the options have to be in a single game? Why cant they be spread out between different games, and players can flock to the game that fits them best?

I have read a little bit of your blog obviously but I stopped reading when I started feeling that it was becoming self contradictory and more emotional than logical. Like I feel about the point you tried to make above, and the one I originally responded to.

Too many armchair developers in this world I think. Everything thinks they know whats best. None of them do.

 

MMOs arent the same as other games, they are supposed to capture players for years on end, as such they need to have all the options.

 

No they don't. They just need to focus on their niches and do it well like EVE/CCP. This way you can be profitable with a small team. I don't want to play a 100% PVE focused MMO but I bet someone reading this would go nuts for that

But I disagree with the guy above me on one thing I think your blogs are great, great reads.

Think I commented on the Huxley one awhile back.

 

I agree that more MMO's need to focus on specific niche markets. No MMO out there can cater to all playstyles not even WoW and it would be foolish to try to. Once a company tries to cater to all playstyles the end result becomes watered down. The reason being the majority of the costumers will dictate what is the most accepted way to play the game and any good developer will atleast cater to that.

Look at EVE, it is a prime example of niche market and it is a success because of it. EVE does not look remotely like any other MMO on the market and they cater to their customers needs. They can atleast stand out from the herd of clones and provide content that no other MMO currently provides. I do not play EVE myself because it does not suit me, but I applaud them for being different and more focused.

Originally posted by Bladin

This topic is in regards to the fanbois on this forum.

We aren't new to online gaming, mmorpgs aren't new and unique.

We don't have to deal with your crappy release anymore.  Yet the excuse that people still use "It's release, give it time to polish.  The other games weren't polished at release either"  Simply doesn't fly, and it's been proven OVER AND OVER.  Yet the fans still use it.

If you release a mmo, you have to be ready to go.  You have to be able to stand against the current mmo titans.  If you release space game you have to compete vs EVE, if you release a leveling quester, you have to compete with WoW.  If you release a PvP centric game, you have to compete with the pvp aspect of current mmos.

Not to just be something different, but vastly inferior(AoC and WAR).  And then hope to be able to compete with the main games in a few years.  Because in a few years, those games you might be FINALLY catching up to, have already moved ahead into bigger and better territory.

Why would anyone settle for a poorly released game, when they have the option to play ones which have already established themselves?  They wouldn't.

And us as gamers need to realize this, and stop letting developers believe this.

Halfway through development, a developer should have a clear idea of how much they will truely be able to get done by release.  The problem is they still TRY to get too much in. And nothing is truely remarkable and nothing really makes it stand out.

 

Give it a few months?  Maybe for some bugs

Give it a few years? Maybe to get extra content to last me after i experience the content in game for those years

 

Sorry, but there is no excuse for mmos to not come out on day 1 swinging.  If it's a buggy unbalanced, contentless, empty mess, then there is no excuse, the game simply isn't very good.

And it will die.

AoC and WAR both suffered the same fate, high box sales, TERRIBLE retention.  Tabula Rasa is going down in flames, HGL is going down. AA died, AC2 died. Vanguard, and MxO both would have died without SOE's life support.

Then theres the few which are still clinging onto hope but never really amounted to anything, PotBS, ryzom, shadowbane, swg, ww2o.

 theres really no problem here as i see it. Vote with your wallet if you don't like the game, but due remember people are different and have different tastes, and different tolerance levels. (some people like seafood some hate it) You picked WAR as a game that should never have been released. Personally i have guild mates that have been playing it since release and still enjoy it and haven't bitched at all. (Guess they and you have different standards/tastes)

  If we and the companies lived by your standards their would not have been one MMO released since what WoW? Dev "Oh dang we're 90% done the games pretty good but not quiet finished but theres no budget left, guess well just trash it." Basically rather then letting people have the choice/option your asking everyone to adhere to your standards and create some kind of MMO barren wasteland. I honestly doubt Blizzard would have even attempted WoW if they had been contractually obligated to produce 100% prefect MMO on first attempt. Others have already pointed out that while WoW had polish it too had problems and was no where near ready for the surplus of players in originally gathered.

  MMO's mirror nature and life to a certain extent. few are truelly ready or completely prepared for challenges we face, there will be many experiments some better some worse. In the end the stronge will survive and the weak won't.

  Vote with your wallet and allow others the same choice, don't try and force your views/opinions/standards on everyone else and you'll probably be alot happier.

 Fanbois and Trolls are just 2 sides of the same coin you'll never get ride of all of either. Call it a strange quirk of human nature.

i never expect much from a MMORPG release, so when the release sucks i'm not as disapointed as all the fanbois reading and believing every single word said by the developers who "dont lie because the company has other reputable games on the market" (lol AOC and WAR). If you expect too much, then you will be disapointed and you will be makeing threads like this on the forum. If you dont expect much you dont get your hopes crushed, because there are no hopes to be crushed.

Originally posted by originalegg

Bladin really gets pissy when it comes to sandbox games, and it is that fact that doesn't allow him to understand why people try to explain how certain aspects of sandbox games make for a more challenging experience.

Being held accountable for your actions makes the game harder.  It is as simple as that.  But that is just one of the many reasons why EVE and games like it are harder than the WoWs and the WARs of the genre.

EVE has a huge learning curve, and it puts the themepark easymode games to shame.  Hell even the economy of EVE is more challenging than all of WoW imo.  The different ways to fit your ship, combinations of ships, but most importantly flying your ship accordingly and your team work skills actually present a challenge vs the target/lock and spam 1 key pvp of WoW (and the pve, especially today, itsnt much more difficult).

 

I think some very interesting parallels can be drawn between this topic and human development.

As children, we are coddled by our parents and able to make many mistakes without consequence, but we also have no freedoms.

As teenagers, we are provided more freedoms and start to feel the first sting of real consequences, but ultimately parents are still responsible for our well being. A failure of the teenager is often seen as a failure of the parent. Teenagers are famous world wide for thinking their lives during this phase are more important and difficult than everyone else.

It is not until adulthood that our own mistakes and the consequences are fully felt, are fully ours alone, but also when we obtain the glory of total freedom.

I think these three phases of life are analogous to the different kinds of mmos out there. Some are nothing more than a ride on rails, pre determined experiences with no way to make mistakes. This is like the child. Some give you more freedom but only weak repercussions for mistakes. This is like the teenager. And some give you total control but total accountability for actions. This is like the adult.

I won't list what games I think fit in which categories :) And I am not insinuating one typeof game is better than any other. There are plenty of adults that wish they could be teenagers or kids again.  As there are children that wish they could be adults. So it follows, there are all types of people that are looking for different things out of life. So it would make sense that the more types of games out there, the greater chance everyone can find something they like.

The only enemy in all this are the people trying to make the genre have less to choose from, because something doesn't fit the world they want to play in.

Originally posted by VirgoThree

Originally posted by PatchDay

Originally posted by DeserttFoxx

Originally posted by Grunties

Originally posted by DeserttFoxx 

I am not supporting dumbing down RPGs, i am advocating the ability to have all the options availible, which is what WoW does, which is what i was pointing out, the game has an easy mode, it also has a decent challenge for those people who want it, and while i dont find raiding to be difficult there are far more people who do, there for it holds them.

If you read my blog, you would know my position hasnt changed.

 

You are advocating the ability to have all the options available by eliminating all of the other options but WoW? All the games you want gone and have been posting about are providing those options. Why do all the options have to be in a single game? Why cant they be spread out between different games, and players can flock to the game that fits them best?

I have read a little bit of your blog obviously but I stopped reading when I started feeling that it was becoming self contradictory and more emotional than logical. Like I feel about the point you tried to make above, and the one I originally responded to.

Too many armchair developers in this world I think. Everything thinks they know whats best. None of them do.

 

MMOs arent the same as other games, they are supposed to capture players for years on end, as such they need to have all the options.

 

No they don't. They just need to focus on their niches and do it well like EVE/CCP. This way you can be profitable with a small team. I don't want to play a 100% PVE focused MMO but I bet someone reading this would go nuts for that

But I disagree with the guy above me on one thing I think your blogs are great, great reads.

Think I commented on the Huxley one awhile back.

 

 

I agree that more MMO's need to focus on specific niche markets. No MMO out there can cater to all playstyles not even WoW and it would be foolish to try to. Once a company tries to cater to all playstyles the end result becomes watered down. The reason being the majority of the costumers will dictate what is the most accepted way to play the game and any good developer will atleast cater to that.

Look at EVE, it is a prime example of niche market and it is a success because of it. EVE does not look remotely like any other MMO on the market and they cater to their customers needs. They can atleast stand out from the herd of clones and provide content that no other MMO currently provides. I do not play EVE myself because it does not suit me, but I applaud them for being different and more focused.

Why do people call eve a success but stick their noses up at WoW.. lets face facts here, WoW is the only MMO to have subscribers in the millions, so clearly trying to cover all bases wins the niche vs mass appeal arguement.

Originally posted by DeserttFoxx 

Why do people call eve a success but stick their noses up at WoW.. lets face facts here, WoW is the only MMO to have subscribers in the millions, so clearly trying to cover all bases wins the niche vs mass appeal arguement.

What is the niche vs. mass appeal argument exactly? That one produces a more fun game? Or a greater financial success? What constitutes a win in this fictional war between mmos?

To answer the former, you insinuate that one very specific type of gamer is the only one that matters, since everyone has their own tastes, and not everyone likes WoW. I don't think anyone argues with the financial success of WoW. But many feel that catering to too many playstyles at once results in a watered down experience for many. WoW has certainly been described as such. Wow is good at certain things. Niche games are good at other things. Which game is better depends entirely on which things you feel are important, and which arent.

Originally posted by DeserttFoxx

Why do people call eve a success but stick their noses up at WoW.. lets face facts here, WoW is the only MMO to have subscribers in the millions, so clearly trying to cover all bases wins the niche vs mass appeal arguement.

It's all relative. If a studio can put together a small team and acquire a great little niche, they can do well for themselves. Look at CCP which is on TV now advertising EVE, making other games, and buying other studios.

What's a success?

Blizzard has to share the dibs with all their stockholders and their owners. A small studio that can kickout a moderately successful MMO can kick back on those royalties and expand aggressively similar to CCP

 Becoming clearer now? Whats easier to make- a WoW clone that the WoW fans will ignore anyway or something thats aimed at a niche?

Going after WoW is just too risky. See, if you liked WoW the smart thing to do woulda been to support WAR/AoC. But since you guys pissed on it guess what titles are getting funded now?

Earthrise, Champions Online, APB, WELL Online, Jumpgate Evolution, etc.

Its your own fault. Guess where my money be going? EVE Online. So that will help show publishers many of us want something fresh