WAR (Warhammer Online)

Originally posted by mackdawg19

 

PvE isn't what this game is about, if that is what your trying to state. It never was. IMO, they shouldn't of added any PQ's or quest related to PvE.

oh god spare me this utter bullsh!t ... the game always had a PVE side to it, sure the focus was mostly about RVR but they never said that PVE didnt have its place in the game. fact is there are MUCH more PVE'rs out there than pure PVPers.

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yep that article hits the nail on the head, the problem is the gamers ... but not just any gamers the WoW gamers.

i Have always said there is too much content in WAR and that players need to be funnelled into certain areas in order to get a good experience from this content. You see WOW do this all the time, quest after quest that moves you through the world. most gamers don't explore anymore unless a quest tells them to go there.

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Rav, while you have some interesting idea here, I think you are missing two valid points about 'who is to blame":

1. In your above, you appear to be putting the blame of the problems so far at WoW players? You must be assuming that the MAJORITY of players in WARhammer today are, ex-WoW players. What are you basing that on? Are you not accounting for brand new players to MMOs or people who have never even set foot in Wow? It may be hard to believe but there are some gamers who still have not played Wow, and those that played didn't necessarily funnel into Warhammer. They could have came from Guild Wars, DAoC, Fury, console pvp type games (like Halo) in addition to any number of failed pvp type projects. Clearly you need to take all those people into account. They simply gravitate to the style of PvP that they are USED to and actually (gasp!) prefer over Open RvR. Scenarios,short battles, smaller more controllable teams.

2. This is squarely Mythic's problem, not the gamer. Heres why:

Take any server and figure in the amount of content in it. There is plenty to do in War, as lots of stated. I saw plenty to do while I was there. Let's assume Mythic figured on any one server, they have enough content for 10,000 players (just using a number). It is falsely believed, especially by Mythic, that the majority of people playing PvP WANT huge, 300v300 fights. So they put in enough keeps all over to make sure each one could have a 300v300 fight. The problem is/was most people don't have the time or desire to get that deep into pvp. One of pvp's basic appeals is you can get in/out fast, and you have a sense of control and effect while fighting. A huge muck won't let you do that. You feel like an ant, like it doesn't matter if you fight or not. In smaller Scenario type battles, you get immediate feedback usually on how you affect the battle, and it doesnt take all night to see it either. Mythic, like many fans, figured if 10k people were on, at least 7k would WANT to be in the RvR and thus, WAR everywhere. Thats called projection: just because you and 2000 other players like it, doesnt mean the other 8k will.

Again, Mythic just clearly misinterepted data from somewhere and assumed 8/10 people who pvp LIKE Open RvR and that would drive the game. Truth is, it's looking like only 3/10 like that style of Pvp. This is reflective in the server numbers. For the others, there simply isn't enough to keep it interesting. It's good, but not exciting. I think we now know ORvR does not have as huge a base as it was believed.

200v200 is NOT epic compared to the rest of the amount of people playing on the server. In other places, that's usually called niche.

Originally posted by fungistratus

This article really hits the nail on the head about the game.

I played in closed beta and there was hardly anyone grinding scenarios, it was all spontaneous PQ's and lots of communication and grouping. 

Now it's a ghost town at lvl 20.  I refuse to play until the day i log into skull throne and find a group in the badlands, let alone more that 10 people in the zone.

I dont know how Mythic is going to fix this (NERF Scenario XP Gain) or make PvE gear rewards better than PvP, not just PQ's give all PvE content love.

NOt only that -- how about some Epic Quest lInes or HIdden Quests?  I haven't completed a quest line in the game that WASNT a PQ that gave me a blue or better.  How about class quests that lead to a great item instead of rewarding you with a potion and XP pat-on-the-back?

There needs to be a draw in the community to go after the PvE content.  I think in closed beta everyone did it because they knew there wasn't a point in leveling, as cap was at 20.

I either need to switch servers or cancel sub till this game gets everything worked out.  I would hate to see another TR, another game I followed closely and closed beta tested ( I hope I am not bad Luck).

No how about if Mythic fix the game by making the RvR meaningful so that players participate because their realm DEPENDS on it rather than each player simply doing things for personal greed. Mythic can dish out endless amounts of false rewards to the players (more phat loot, more exp, more renown points, more silly titles etc) which fuels each individual players so-called "progress" along the level grinding treadmill but it wont change a damn thing because it still doesnt alter the fact that the RvR in WAR is.........

POINTLESS

Mythic shouldnt have to entice and lure the players to fight for objectives. Unfortunately WAR has not been designed around an RvR concept so thats all they can do. It just doesnt work. They have made a game where the players have to progress up a levelling ladder to allow them to move from one "room" to the next......which are all laid out in a line. There is a beginning and an end to the game.......which just doesnt make any sense in an RvR game that is supposed to be a war between two sides. I havent seen many wars where the participants are segregated into 4 seperate areas and where each area is restricted by the participants "battle experience". What a dumb idea......or should I say lack of idea as Mythic clearly didnt put ANY thought into this game at all. They just looked at WoW, copied it and plonked a few pointless keeps down in a few PvP playpens. Calling it an RvR game is a joke.

There is no strategy or taking and holding of territory. There is no strategic value to anything in WAR. Its just a PvE story exactly like WoW except it is divided into 4 rooms and in each room the players can dabble in an RvR area if they can be bothered.......or they can just ignore it and carry on doing the only thing that allows them to gain any sense of progress......which is of course going up levels so that they can eventually reach level 40 and the almighty mythical Land of End Game where everything is supposedly shiny and awesome.

Its a shame Mythic didnt have the brains to realise that actually that endgame zone should actually be the entire game. Guildwars allowed you to create a maximum level character and skip the whole story part and go straight to the PvP tournaments. WAR may as well do the same thing. Oh but of course they cant do that now can they because then everyone would ditch the first 3 rooms and go straight to room 4.......which highlights how pointless the game actually is. Whats the point in having a war game when you dont actually need to particupate in it? The only thing you can have any impact on is the level of your own cookie-cutter avatar lol

Originally posted by popinjay

 

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I particularly like how the writer correctly identified the core issue - while players ARE playing wrongly, it is ultimately Mythic's fault in failing to show them clearly enough how to play correctly.

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hmm.. I guess this statement, as well as the original editoral throws under the bus the argument that people are being lead like sheep in others games, and thats what makes WAR so refreshing.

It has been said so many times other games 'lead' and 'herd' and 'sheep' you do death, but now it appears this is what the WAR faithful are in total agreement that it is EXACTLY what War SHOULD be doing right now? Sheepherding? Well, if that don't beat the band.

This is rather odd come-about philosophy. I thought the key attraction to WAR was it's 'NON-sheepness' and somewhat sandboxy appeal. Now sheepherding is being put forth as the saving idea for the game to keep it afloat? Is the idea here, that you love War THAT much; that you'd prostitute your ideals a bit as long as the game continues?

I really bet there's a certain other game laughing quite out loud while reading this particular idea coming from War fans... one that they knew all along what people wanted (needed?) and have been doing that for years. Quite ironic.

 

Sandbox? HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!!!

Explain how this game does not lead the player? How do you escape the levelling treadmill in this game? What objectives can you set yourself other than "I want to reach level 40 so I can attack the enemy city"?

Oh and yes WoW probably is laughing at WAR. In fact it has no doubt been doing that from the very beginning. Why wouldnt they? WAR has tried to be THE RvR game......and yet it tried to do it by copying the game design of WoW. Thats damn good laughing stock material.

Basicly Mythic has forfeited its chance to make a great RvR game and its all because they were too lazy to come up with their own ideas. It serves them right. They stick a few keeps in a few "optional" PvP playpens and yet force the players along a levelling treadmill. Oh the traffic isnt hanging around in the playpens? Oh my gosh! What a surprise! Who would ever have expected it!

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Explain how this game does not lead the player? How do you escape the levelling treadmill in this game? What objectives can you set yourself other than "I want to reach level 40 so I can attack the enemy city"?

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I dunno. I can only go by what I am seeing the people I know to be baptized WAR fans post now, that War has NOT lead their subscribers ENOUGH by the hand, they want more sheepherding and that is why the game is suffering. Read all the convential wisdom now coming down, thats what it is pointing to.

They say the majority of players are playing "wrong", so War fans now want to be lead, apparantly. They don't feel enough guidance is being given to them.

Originally posted by markoraos

I pretty much agree with the post.

I particularly like how the writer correctly identified the core issue - while players ARE playing wrongly, it is ultimately Mythic's fault in failing to show them clearly enough how to play correctly.

I've been shouted down many times on these boards that I'm blaming players for not playing the game as it should be played. I'm not saying that the game isn't to blame... just that with some more incentive and imaginativeness they could have much much more fun. (stop q-ing for that damn scenario, join a PQ group and suggest "hey lets take a few BOs and a keep for a change?" - when you take a few some enemies are bound to notice and start harassing your band... and voilla - there's your open RvR starting  to roll.)

Sadly a lot of people are not ready for that kind of taking things into their own hands and fully expect the game to lead them by their noses. I blame WoW for that - if WAR released 5 years ago we'd have no such problems whatsoever - mmos were played exactly for this open-endedness and freedom to do your own thing and take initiative. Today it's a different matter - most players fully expect to be led by the hand step by step through the game with easy-to-read signs on the way. If they don't see those signs flashing in bright neon they automatically assume that there is nothing there. If it's not advertised it simply doesn't exit for them.

I dont agree with that. The players are playing the game EXACTLY the way it has been designed. People ARE totally ready to take things into their own hands and fight for things in games.......but there has to be a reason to do it. In WAR that reason doesnt exist.

The main focus of the game is level grinding. Its a linear story where the objective is to get to level 40 and have a big never-ending fight between the two main cities. Yeah sure players can choose to fight over keeps along the way if they want to but whats the point when taking one doesnt really have much impact on anything and certainly doesnt hinder them in any way on their levelling treadmill. Sure it does have some impact on opening up the enemy city but thats endgame content so most people dont give a shit about it. Why go to the effort of fighting over objectives in rooms 1-3 when the only result is that the people in room 4 can attack the city?

......and thats one of the big problems with the game. Everyone is seperated and spread out between rooms 1-4 because of their levels. There is no reason to stay and defend anything because you are forced along the levelling treadmill. The game only alllows you to stay still and think for yourself once you get to the end because then the treadmill is over and there are no more bloody levels to gain so the player can focus on what matters and fight for their realm.

Take EVE as an example. Forget about the mechanics of the game but pay attention to the fact that there is no particular place that anyone is being shepharded towards. Also players of any level or experience and go anywhere and fight over and control different areas. In WAR this is impossible. Thinking for yourself and trying to do something worthwhile is impossible. You either follow the levelling treadmill and move from one room to the next or you.....what? What else would you do? What other goal could you possibly set for yourself?

Yeah I suppose you could blame WoW......but you would be wrong to do so. Blame WAR for copying WoW. People play WAR in the same way that they play WoW because WAR has exactly the same game design. Of course they are going to play the game the same way. Thats how it has been made. People can only do what the game allows them to do.

Originally posted by neonwire

Originally posted by markoraos

I pretty much agree with the post.

I particularly like how the writer correctly identified the core issue - while players ARE playing wrongly, it is ultimately Mythic's fault in failing to show them clearly enough how to play correctly.

I've been shouted down many times on these boards that I'm blaming players for not playing the game as it should be played. I'm not saying that the game isn't to blame... just that with some more incentive and imaginativeness they could have much much more fun. (stop q-ing for that damn scenario, join a PQ group and suggest "hey lets take a few BOs and a keep for a change?" - when you take a few some enemies are bound to notice and start harassing your band... and voilla - there's your open RvR starting  to roll.)

Sadly a lot of people are not ready for that kind of taking things into their own hands and fully expect the game to lead them by their noses. I blame WoW for that - if WAR released 5 years ago we'd have no such problems whatsoever - mmos were played exactly for this open-endedness and freedom to do your own thing and take initiative. Today it's a different matter - most players fully expect to be led by the hand step by step through the game with easy-to-read signs on the way. If they don't see those signs flashing in bright neon they automatically assume that there is nothing there. If it's not advertised it simply doesn't exit for them.

 

I dont agree with that. The players are playing the game EXACTLY the way it has been designed. People ARE totally ready to take things into their own hands and fight for things in games.......but there has to be a reason to do it. In WAR that reason doesnt exist.

There is a reason. It is called FUN. I will not play in a certain way that I don't find fun just because it gives me the most xp/hour. I pay and play games to have FUN and not work for rewards. That's why I've been leveling slowly and had a lot of fun and made a bunch of new friends on the way.

The main focus of the game is level grinding. Its a linear story where the objective is to get to level 40 and have a big never-ending fight between the two main cities. Yeah sure players can choose to fight over keeps along the way if they want to but whats the point when taking one doesnt really have much impact on anything and certainly doesnt hinder them in any way on their levelling treadmill. Sure it does have some impact on opening up the enemy city but thats endgame content so most people dont give a shit about it. Why go to the effort of fighting over objectives in rooms 1-3 when the only result is that the people in room 4 can attack the city?

Your idea that the main focus of the game is level grinding is just plain WRONG. Me and my friends who came from WoW absolutely love the way that everything you do in the game is rewarding in some way and that leveling is something that actually happens spontaneously. I know it is hard to understand  to many but we play the game to enjoy ourselves - the game ITSELF is enjoyable