Tabula Rasa

Originally posted by Rokurgepta

How does shutting games down make NCSoft better than SOE. At least SOE continues to develop Vanguard. It is not nearly as bad as some people here say. Does it need a lot of work? Yes it still does, but it is a much better overall game than TR ever was. Vanguard has not been a financial disaster for SOE that is why it is still around and has been slowly growing as of late due to the new starter area being well received and the trial being tried by a lot of people.

I understand that the business side of it for NCSoft made shutting TR the right thing to do. It was not ever going to be profitable and there is not nearly enough game to run a skeleton crew that develops as slow as Vanguard. That is the advantage Vanguard has over TR it was such a huge game with more to do that it can survive that way a bit  better than TR.

If a game is bad it should never be released. Bad games should not get made in the first place. Once a bad game is made it should be shut down because its still bad. There is no reason to keep bad games alive.

...unless you happen to be SOE, in which case the reason for keeping bad games alive is to pad the value of your all access pass. (Which I've pointed out for you a dozen times by now, why keep asking me the same question over and over?)

Even if Vanguard is "better" now that doesn't make it good nor is it a good enough reason for it to have been kept alive all this time. MxO hasn't gotten any better, its still as bad as ever. I hate to say it but even Planetside, a game I actually like, has been more or less ignored by SoE over the years but has been kept online just for the sake of the all access pass. SoE is just milking these awful games for their own benefit. If you think they are doing it because they give half a rats ass about you then you are just fooling yourself.

Originally posted by Raltar

Originally posted by Rokurgepta

How does shutting games down make NCSoft better than SOE. At least SOE continues to develop Vanguard. It is not nearly as bad as some people here say. Does it need a lot of work? Yes it still does, but it is a much better overall game than TR ever was. Vanguard has not been a financial disaster for SOE that is why it is still around and has been slowly growing as of late due to the new starter area being well received and the trial being tried by a lot of people.

I understand that the business side of it for NCSoft made shutting TR the right thing to do. It was not ever going to be profitable and there is not nearly enough game to run a skeleton crew that develops as slow as Vanguard. That is the advantage Vanguard has over TR it was such a huge game with more to do that it can survive that way a bit  better than TR.

 

If a game is bad it should never be released. Bad games should not get made in the first place. Once a bad game is made it should be shut down because its still bad. There is no reason to keep bad games alive.

...unless you happen to be SOE, in which case the reason for keeping bad games alive is to pad the value of your all access pass. (Which I've pointed out for you a dozen times by now, why keep asking me the same question over and over?)

Even if Vanguard is "better" now that doesn't make it good nor is it a good enough reason for it to have been kept alive all this time. MxO hasn't gotten any better, its still as bad as ever. I hate to say it but even Planetside, a game I actually like, has been more or less ignored by SoE over the years but has been kept online just for the sake of the all access pass. SoE is just milking these awful games for their own benefit. If you think they are doing it because they give half a rats ass about you then you are just fooling yourself.

Vanguard is not a bad game at all. It has a lot more going for it than most other MMOs out today. SOE and their all access pass benefit both the player and SOE. Yes they pad the value of their all access pass, but that allows games with smaller populations to survive. How is this such a horrible thing? Do you really want just 4 MMOs to choose from?

Your opinion of a game is just that, but to say it should not be released because you think it is bad is the foolish thing. I keep asking you the same question because you have an obvious bias you refuse to get past and see things clearly. Not my problem. You seem to think that a game being good or bad should be known from the start and simply not made, do you really think ti is that easy?

Originally posted by Rokurgepta

Vanguard is not a bad game at all. It has a lot more going for it than most other MMOs out today. SOE and their all access pass benefit both the player and SOE. Yes they pad the value of their all access pass, but that allows games with smaller populations to survive. How is this such a horrible thing? Do you really want just 4 MMOs to choose from?

Your opinion of a game is just that, but to say it should not be released because you think it is bad is the foolish thing. I keep asking you the same question because you have an obvious bias you refuse to get past and see things clearly. Not my problem. You seem to think that a game being good or bad should be known from the start and simply not made, do you really think ti is that easy?

Vangaurd is a bad game. It was bad when it was released and it may have gotten "better" since then but does that refund the money I spent on it at launch when it was bad? No. Is it good enough to make it worth my time or the time of the vast majority of people out there to play it? No. Thus: bad game. It may only be my opinion but its an opinion shared by a very large majority of people and that makes it a valid opinion. Its not like I'm suggesting something totally wild here like Nixon killed Kennedy. I'm suggesting that a game which many people did not like and would not be willing to play is a bad game because of that fact. You may not agree thats its "bad" but you have to see that most people would say that it is.

Q: Do you really want just 4 MMOs to choose from?

A: Have you looked at the game list lately? Seriously? Like, in the last five years? You really think if Vanguard and MxO were shut down we would have any lack of games to choose from? Plus what I want is for BAD games to shut down. So if that did somehow result in there only being four MMOs to choose from then I can only assume those would be the only four that were any good. I remember back in the day when we really did have only four MMOs to choose from and I don't recall it being all that bad either.

Q: You seem to think that a game being good or bad should be known from the start and simply not made, do you really think ti is that easy?

A: YES! I really do believe it is that easy! Because it is! Would anyone here deny that Vanguard and MxO were BAD when they were first released? Would anyone have broken down and cried if they had simply not been released? Game developers know when the product they are working on is not fun. They simply are pushed by their publisher to get the game on the market anyway. This is why publishers are the bad guys of the video game industry. And what is SoE? Oh YEAAAAH, a publisher huh?

Of course that one guy will probably thorw a huge fit about SoE buying Vangaurd and MxO from someone else and trying to make a case for them not being the publisher based on that fact but heres where we come back to my original point: If SoE bought these games knowing they were bad games then they obviously did it only because they needed more games (even bad ones) just to pad the value of their all access pass.

So there you go: SoE keeps bad games alive only to pad the value of their all access pass. NCsoft doesn't and thats why they are better than SoE.

Originally posted by Raltar

Originally posted by Rokurgepta

Vanguard is not a bad game at all. It has a lot more going for it than most other MMOs out today. SOE and their all access pass benefit both the player and SOE. Yes they pad the value of their all access pass, but that allows games with smaller populations to survive. How is this such a horrible thing? Do you really want just 4 MMOs to choose from?

Your opinion of a game is just that, but to say it should not be released because you think it is bad is the foolish thing. I keep asking you the same question because you have an obvious bias you refuse to get past and see things clearly. Not my problem. You seem to think that a game being good or bad should be known from the start and simply not made, do you really think ti is that easy?

 

Vangaurd is a bad game. It was bad when it was released and it may have gotten "better" since then but does that refund the money I spent on it at launch when it was bad? No. Is it good enough to make it worth my time or the time of the vast majority of people out there to play it? No. Thus: bad game. It may only be my opinion but its an opinion shared by a very large majority of people and that makes it a valid opinion. Its not like I'm suggesting something totally wild here like Nixon killed Kennedy. I'm suggesting that a game which many people did not like and would not be willing to play is a bad game because of that fact. You may not agree thats its "bad" but you have to see that most people would say that it is.

 

Q: Do you really want just 4 MMOs to choose from?

A: Have you looked at the game list lately? Seriously? Like, in the last five years? You really think if Vanguard and MxO were shut down we would have any lack of games to choose from? Plus what I want is for BAD games to shut down. So if that did somehow result in there only being four MMOs to choose from then I can only assume those would be the only four that were any good. I remember back in the day when we really did have only four MMOs to choose from and I don't recall it being all that bad either.

 

Q: You seem to think that a game being good or bad should be known from the start and simply not made, do you really think ti is that easy?

A: YES! I really do believe it is that easy! Because it is! Would anyone here deny that Vanguard and MxO were BAD when they were first released? Would anyone have broken down and cried if they had simply not been released? Game developers know when the product they are working on is not fun. They simply are pushed by their publisher to get the game on the market anyway. This is why publishers are the bad guys of the video game industry. And what is SoE? Oh YEAAAAH, a publisher huh?

 

Of course that one guy will probably thorw a huge fit about SoE buying Vangaurd and MxO from someone else and trying to make a case for them not being the publisher based on that fact but heres where we come back to my original point: If SoE bought these games knowing they were bad games then they obviously did it only because they needed more games (even bad ones) just to pad the value of their all access pass.

So there you go: SoE keeps bad games alive only to pad the value of their all access pass. NCsoft doesn't and thats why they are better than SoE.

Except SOE continues to work on Vanguard making it better and not just padding the all access pass. Ignore that fact all you want and stand on your soap box preaching the goodness of NCSoft for cancelling games. TR needed to be cancelled it was a financial disaster, but SOE keeping games alive and working on them slowly making their All Acess pass worthwhile is not a bad thing either in my opinion. Your problem is you think your opinion is fact.
 

You believe it is easy to know a game is good or bad before it even has time to go through being created. Can I get tomorrow lottery numbers too?

Edit: I see it like this. SOE keeps games alive that alone may not be finacially viable, but together being developed and paid for through an All Access pass are kept alive for the people who do enjoy them. Not all games that have small populations are bad games. Vanguard is not a bad game, you think it is. Your thoughts are not getting a game closed.  You are complaining about Vanguard not being worth your money and that is your right, but to say it is not worth the money of the vast majority playing it is just folly, there are other words but no need to get banned for using them. You are actually trying to speak for people playing it and saying it is not worth their money? Let them decide if it is and just give your opinion on the game. Good or bad an opinion on the game should always be welcomed, but when you start speaking for the majority when you have no authority to do so you make your opinion worth less than it was at the start.

Stop speaking for most people or even trying to and stick to speaking for yourself, I would guess you know your own opinions.

I think if most people went and tried to Vanguard trial with an open mind they would find a fun game with a huge world to explore and if that is the type of game they enjoy then I would think they would like Vanguard. I also would expect people who like combat like DDO has to find Vanguard not that great. Not every MMO can appeal to every kind of player.

Originally posted by Rokurgepta

Your problem is you think your opinion is fact.  

You believe it is easy to know a game is good or bad before it even has time to go through being created. Can I get tomorrow lottery numbers too?

Stop speaking for most people or even trying to and stick to speaking for yourself, I would guess you know your own opinions.

Your problem is you are trying to ignore facts by calling them opinions. Yes, Its my opinion that Vanguard is a bad game. But its also an opinion that the majority of people share which is the part you keep trying to ignore. YOU think that because YOU like Vanguard that everyone else is wrong and its only their opinion. But its much more likely that the majority of people know what they are talking about and it is you in the minority who just has poor taste in games. Either way, it doesn't matter. Everyone knows that Vanguard was a bad game at launch and most people agree it is still bad now. The rest will just look like fanboys.

You claim SoE has made the game "better" now and thus they can't be using it just to pad the value of their all access pass. But really, if thats the case then explain to me why Vanguard is getting "better" while MxO, Planetside and many of SoE's other games do not get better or in fact get worse. It seems to me that SoE just grabs these games up and sits on them. Some get slightly better as the result of the two or three developers working on them fixing bugs and adding small amounts of content where they can but most just sit and rot away or get wrecked by psychotic decisions to drastically alter the game. It looks to me like its nothing but a roll of the dice. A game might get better in SoE's All Access box or it might not (or it might get worse) but the only sure thing is that it will never be shut down no matter how bad it is. I don't see any grand charity on the part of SoE here, just an attempt to acquire as many games as possible for their all access pass.

You accuse me of being on my "soap box" trying to make NCsoft sound better than they are. You are actually the one doing this for SoE. You claim they are doing us all some grand favor by keeping games alive that would otherwise be shut down for being too small. This is totally wrong on multiple levels. First, SoE isn't doing you any favors. They don't care about you. They probably hate you. They only care about your money. They keep bad games alive to get your money. Its working.

Secondly, games aren't shut down because they are small. This idea you have that if I got my way and shut down all "bad" games that I would shut down all "small" games is flawed. One of my favorite games of all time Was Asheron's Call (the original). It was a great game in its heyday. But it was tiny in terms of population compared to its main competitor of the time: Everquest. But did people flip the hell out everyday and threaten to shut the game down because it was small? No. It was kept online because it was good and different from the other options available at the time. Small games stay alive when they are good enough to have some kind of future. Bad games have no future and are shut down for that reason.

There are lots of BAD games out there that are small. There are also lots of good games out there that are small. I'm not suggesting that we shut down all small games, only the games that are bad. To the best of my knowledge the majority of MMOs which have been shut down were shut down for being bad, not small. Dark and Light is a great example of this. It was the worst MMO of all time and it is now offline because of that (the situation with the game is complicated but the long and short of it is that it is gone now). Earth and Beyond, another bad game that got shut down because nobody really wanted to play it. Auto Assault, an original idea but in the end not a very good game, got shut down because it just obviously was not going to have any future. Then finally Tabula Rasa. Was it small? Yes. But is that why it was shut down? No. It was a major disaster for NCSoft and that is why they shut it down. It wasn't just the money either, but because Richard Garriot made them look like fools for giving him a free trip into outer space. The game had no future and would only be a stain on NCsoft's record and that is why it was shut down.

I don't want to shut down small games. I want to shut down bad games. If a game has been around for less than a year and already the majority of people who know of its existence hate it, then thats a good sign that it is simply a bad game, a game with no future. This has been the case with the majority of MMOs that have been shut down thus far and I want this trend to continue. SoE is only doing a disservice to all gamers by keeping bad games alive as an excuse to milk people with their all access pass. Just because one of their bad games happened to get a tiny bit better doesn't excuse them for keeping bad games alive in the first place.

Wait its bad that people however many few want to play a game and SOE is happy to make it happen? Hmm sounds like SOE is trying to take care of the few that like the game. Doesn't sound like a disservice to me.

Originally posted by Night_Hawke

Wait its bad that people however many few want to play a game and SOE is happy to make it happen? Hmm sounds like SOE is trying to take care of the few that like the game. Doesn't sound like a disservice to me.

SoE is not "happy to make it happen" is the point. They do it to pad the value of the all access pass and that is their only reason. They don't care about the people playing the game, which is why many of their games don't ever improve like MxO and Planetside.