With some of the new games that are comming out im hearing more and more of this " Well the game starts at 20-30-50" ect ect.

I just don't understand that logic am i not suppose to judge a game based on the first 20 levels?  Why not do i not have to pay a subscription for the first 20? do i instantly get to skip the crappy levels? Why start a game out slow like that why have the first 20 levels if there not the experiance your trying to get to the users.

With aion im hearing, its a pvp game. Well is it really? Ive played to 13 so far i haven't seen any. i asked this question and the response i got was " Well it dosen't start till the abyss that's when it gets good." sooo your not suppose to count the first 30-40 lvl's till you get there then its a pvp game. I wouldn't call that a pvp game if you have to do 40 lvl's before you are required to think at all.

So am i the only one who thinks you should judge all of the mmo not just the carrot they drop at the end. You do have to play threw the other stuff to get there shouldn't that be kinda fun too.

I disagree.

In the game Dark Age of Camelot, without a doubt my favourite MMO of all time, the real game didn't truly start until max level (50). But to get there, you had to grind through 49 of the most snooze inducing levels I've ever had to play through. I didn't mind though. The grind was rewarded by the truly awesome end-game pvp.

Even in a game like WoW, that probably has one of the most enjoyable level grinds, the fun for many/most/some/me didn't start until max level raiding and pvp.

edit - And I just want to mention that IMO, as long as the gameplay in general is good, then I truly do not care if the 1-50 content is boring as hell.. Honestly, this is evident in my fanboyism of DAOC. Simply put though, if that levelling content is boring, then the game better have some bomb-ass end-game content.

Most games think you're an idiot and therefore waste all the newbie potential on a very inadquete "player training".    Story and quest lines so insanely stupid that the developers don't even try to hide that fact with some form of passable story.

 Game developers seem to think that the more grind you put in before the "good stuff", the better the game will be. In all honesty though, this turns a lot of people off and rewards the people who are addicted. Thus imbalancing the game and turning it into another MMO casualty.

Because not every feature is introduced at the start.

PVP is a feature that in many mmorpg's isn't really avaible untill higher levels. This is to introduce players to new features of the game without the player becomming overwhelmed.

A lot of games also increase in depth as you progress. Take World of Warcraft for example, pick any class. Compare the character at level 1 to a character at level 30, a lvl 60 and a lvl 80 character. You'll notice that the higher level characters have a lot more possibilities and abilities

Originally posted by MrTRiot

 Game developers seem to think that the more grind you put in before the "good stuff", the better the game will be.

Quite the opposite. It's the players that feel that way. If players would stop trudging through content they don't like, developers would stop making it. Think about it logically; If the common player contention about a game is that levels 1-XX is horrible, and players play it anyway, then there's nothing to indicate to developers that it sucks. If people refused to pay to wade through content they don't consider fun, it sends a clear message to the developers that there needs to be a change. So, as it stands, for most MMOs, the level 1-XX experience is either good enough that people are happy to pay for it, or people are dumb as rocks and they will actually pay a monthly fee to endure content they feel is tedious and boring just to get to content they believe will be better.

The latest rumor I heard is that when you pay a subscription fee you subscribe to the entire game not 1/2 or 3/4ths of it.

I agree, its really sad when you have to wait till *insert level here* of *insert game here* to have FUN, isn't that what they made it for?

Originally posted by LynxJSA

Originally posted by MrTRiot

 Game developers seem to think that the more grind you put in before the "good stuff", the better the game will be.

 

Quite the opposite. It's the players that feel that way. If players would stop trudging through content they don't like, developers would stop making it. Think about it logically; If the common player contention about a game is that levels 1-XX is horrible, and players play it anyway, then there's nothing to indicate to developers that it sucks. If people refused to pay to wade through content they don't consider fun, it sends a clear message to the developers that there needs to be a change. So, as it stands, for most MMOs, the level 1-XX experience is either good enough that people are happy to pay for it, or people are dumb as rocks and they will actually pay a monthly fee to endure content they feel is tedious and boring just to get to content they beleive will be better.

 

 

The reason I've seen most people go through ridiculous ammounts of grind is so they can make a lot of in game currency. This always leads to people selling in game money for real cash...

Most games are like the real world. 5% of people hold 95% of the money....

Originally posted by HandsomeHuss

I disagree.

In the game Dark Age of Camelot, without a doubt my favourite MMO of all time, the real game didn't truly start until max level (50). But to get there, you had to grind through 49 of the most snooze inducing levels I've ever had to play through. I didn't mind though. The grind was rewarded by the truly awesome end-game pvp.

Even in a game like WoW, that probably has one of the most enjoyable level grinds, the fun for many/most/some/me didn't start until max level raiding and pvp.

edit - And I just want to mention that IMO, as long as the gameplay in general is good, then I truly do not care if the 1-50 content is boring as hell.. Honestly, this is evident in my fanboyism of DAOC. Simply put though, if that levelling content is boring, then the game better have some bomb-ass end-game content.

See, I found DAOC fun and enjoyable for level 1-49 and found 50 the same ole, same ole grind. Don't get me wrong....RVR was fun and exciting but I prefer PVE so I am biased.

I didn't think 1-49 was that bad though. There was so much to do and go and see. I would login and just explore some days. Of course back then, it was login, get a group, go find a spot to grind mobs for a few hours and HOPE you ended with more Xp than you began with. :)

I don't mind a long and mind numbing grind if the content is fun and interesting. With Aion just do not find the leveling content to be fun, interesting, exciting - just a grind with no reason.

With level based MMO's it only makes sense that more focus would be on maxing level or end game since this is the expected area that "most" will be spending the majority of time in. So "wiat till lvl then the game is good" statements/claims work fine and make sense to me.

Originally posted by Gameloading

A lot of games also increase in depth as you progress. Take World of Warcraft for example, pick any class. Compare the character at level 1 to a character at level 30, a lvl 60 and a lvl 80 character. You'll notice that the higher level characters have a lot more possibilities and abilities

This right here. Fighting at level 1 in most games is 1 1 1 1 1, while higher you can add in 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4.

While I think games should try to draw the player in more at early levels, they are basically just to teach you the game mechanics.

I follow a simple rule and it's always true...for me, in any case. If the game isn't fun by level 10, it's not ever going to be fun for me.  Quite honestly there has not been any game I've played that, upon reaching "high" levels, has radically changed so much from the first 10 or so levels that it magically made the game great.  The games I enjoyed the most and stuck with were the ones that I was having a blast with in the first few minutes of playing.

Plus I think it's absolutely idiotic to keep paying a monthly fee just to be bored and "wait" until "the good stuff".  If I'm paying a company to play their game, I want it to be fun from levels 1-whatevercapis.  If it's not? They're not getting my money. Period. I'll go find something else to spend it on. I'm not that desperate or hardcore to suffer through tedium for weeks or months until "the good stuff".

IMO, the blame ultimately goes to the players.

The whole problem of the game not becoming "fun" 'til end-game is ridiculous in itself. MMORPGs are *supposed* to be engaging from level 1 for as long as you play it. There should be interesting and engaging content at all levels... not only the end.

The sad thing is, in many MMOs that is the case; there *is* good content throughout the game. The problem is, it's de-valued by players who believe the "only reason" to play a MMO is to get to end-game. They're basically imposing a "win condition" on a MMO that, by design and concept, is supposed to be without end... there is no "finish line". They are *convinced* that anything prior to end-game is "useless filler".

It's the developers' responsibility to provide this experience. Thing is... they can create the most epic questlines, battles ever... They can't force the players to play them as intended. The developers can't *force* players to not use online guides, cookie-cutter templates, etc. to skip the "gameplay" part so they can race to the end result. As the saying goes, "You can lead a horse to water..."

I've had discussions and debates with many people - online and in real life - who *insist* that levels 1-to-levelcap are only there to make more money. They are firmly rooted in that "end game is all that matters" , "win condition" mentality. They are *completely* missing the point.  They're only seeing the low levels as useless filler because they have decided that the only "valuable" content is at the end-game. So, of course it's going to seem to them like they're being milked for their $$$ by "being forced" to go through all those levels. They're approaching the game all wrong.

I've been through some questlines that were well designed and quite enjoyable in almost all MMOs I've played. Many players wouldn't know it, though, because they can't be bothered to read the storyline.. They're too busy clicking through it. They aren't challenged in trying to locate some hidden den, or uncover some remote area... because they're simply looking it up online or using in-game helpers to get them through it. They wouldn't know how truly epic a given fight might be when taken on at the appropriate level in the appropriate conditions, because they just have a higher level friend come along and wipe the place clean for them. Why? Because, to them, "end-game is all that matters".

However, and yes I'm going to say this with absolute certainty... that's not the way MMORPGs were conceived or intended to be played. They are an on-going adventure that are supposed to provide entertainment and adventure for as long as the player chooses to play it... not until "they hit end-game and run out of things to do, so they can move on to the next one". 

Players have basically imposed a shelf-life onto a genre that's intended to go for years.

Look at the people still playing EQ1, AO, AC1, etc. etc... All those 1st and 2nd gen MMOs that came out years before the newer crop.. While newer MMO players are hopping madly from one MMO to the next every couple months, they're still having fun in the world they first entered years ago.

Now some might say "Well the developers aren't delivering interesting content". Well... not anymore they're not. I agree, the content in most MMOs in recent years has gotten to be boring, unimaginative and "empty".

Why? Well, again, I blame the players. The players have decided the end-game is all that matters. They're the ones who have decided that earlier levels are only to be raced through as quickly as possible..

The players have devalued the content by paying as little attention to it as possible, in their race for that coveted "level cap". Is it any wonder developers have put less and less effort into creating a more interesting lower level game, putting more effort into the higher level content?

The players have sent the message loud and clear: "We only care about end-game. We don't care about the lower levels; they're just useless filler".

The developers are simply catering to what the players clearly want. A faster leveling game with more emphasis on end-game.

Same goes for peripheral activities like crafting, fishing, etc. etc... Players don't care about that, so even those types of activities have been reduced to little more than pointless click-fests. They're not made more interesting because many players aren't interested in anything that don't help them level faster.

Sadly, those who *do* enjoy the game earlier in the levels and who *do* take the time to go through the quests, read the storylines, etc... are finding interesting storylines and tasks that have some kind of significance  to be replaced by more and more "fetch and kill" quests... Why? Because more and more players have made it clear that quests are merely a way to level up faster and get some decent loot along the way.

So... in the end, I blame the players. They're getting exactly what they asked for.

Slow down... Show developers that you *are* more interested in the entire game, not only what happens at level cap... Show that you appreciate better storylines and more involved quest chains... and just *maybe* they'll respond by bringing back a more interesting experience from 1 to end-game.


 

^^ ^^ I somewhat agree with that.

The most fun I used to have in MMO's was the actual GETTING to end game. Endgame itself is usually really boring for me... it's grinding PVP or dungeons or whatever for loot. Eh.

Sadly the MMO market has been catering more and more and more to this style of gameplay. Look at WoW's latest "idea" for a new patch.  Make it even faster to level, give mounts at lower levels so you can level faster, etc. They've already taken out the elite quests, they've already cut the amount of exp you need to get to cap a few times. Instead of revamping the old world and making it interesting again for newcomers or people leveling their alts, they're just making it faster and even less interesting. It's a growing trend.

Which is probably why most MMO's these days bore the hell out of me. The quests are uninspired. There seems to be no thought put into the newbie content. It's all just part of the "hurry up and get to level cap" rat race.  Everything evolves around the endgame and not the story or quests or world you explore and immerse yourself in to get to the damned grindy repititive "epic loot" endgame.