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8/25/11 12:11:37 PM#201
Originally posted by generals3 I think it's more than just being a feature that's not included. Bioware has included same sex relationships in their games. Very few games do include it. So a certain demographic was expecting that they would at least be represented. The ommission is surprising to some them.
I agree with your stance about the lore and that if something isn't in the lore then why add it? Completely agree. However, since they are adding romantic relationships thereis an acknowledgement that personal relationships are an important part of this game. And since it is and since Bioware has previously added these types of relationships it seems odd that it is not included. Of course, one can then argue that it's not "relationships" that are the issue but same sex relationships and that Star Wars never had them so why add them. I would counterargue that Star Wars probably didn't have any (to my knowledge) gay people but since it is a story about humantiy and since these games flesh out all the details of that humanity then it makes sense to include it.
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8/25/11 12:12:17 PM#202
Originally posted by bigsmiff You argument is invalid as Humans where not designed in the first place. Along side that, naturallity is a human term and thereby artificial. In reality no human could ever act unnatural as the therm human covers all that what human is. To call homesexuality unnatural would be silly, as it is impossible for a human to act unnatural. Any human behaviour is human behaviour, there is no right or wrong in this. Any sub-definition of natural is aritifical and based on formality, and thereby not universal. Our own invented terms to differentiate arn't worth anything, leaving us in the dark when it comes to these kind of discussions. Leave your ariticial and thereby non-univeral morals out of it, as there is no place for it. |
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8/25/11 12:12:32 PM#203
Originally posted by Leoghan They you mean George Lucas? Bioware is only following the IP and limits set in front of them by LA. You people act as if Bioware controls the IP and is making all decisions on it's own. LA is notorious like Game Workshop in controlling every aspect of game development. If LA feels same sex relationships are not needed in SWTOR what can bioware do about it? |
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8/25/11 12:13:17 PM#204
Originally posted by Leoghan Power to the Sheeple |
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8/25/11 12:15:01 PM#205
Originally posted by generals3 http://www.emarketer.com/Reports/All/Emarketer_2000408.aspx That one is pretty typical of most surveys and studies about GLBT business and internet presence.
What? LOL Are you really asking me to explain why a gay relationship is not the same as bestiality? Are you really? Is this a prank? I'm sorry, I can't argue with you about your religious beliefs. If you can't analyze and figure out that two consenting healthy people in a relationship is not the same as a human abusing an animal then I don't have much to talk with you about.
So it's discrimination against schools to force schools to be integrated? Really? The reason why they had to force integration was due to the schools not allowing blacks to attend. The reason companies were forced to adopt "equal opportunity hiring" was because they weren't hiring black employees. It's funny how you turn it around and say "oh no it's the school or company that is being discriminated against." The same view that forcing integration is discrimination is not new. The same thing was said in the 1970s when people began complaining that there weren't really any black characters, and certainly no positve ones, on tv. Things changed because people got on the issue. Forcing people to stop discriminating against a people that they don't like for religious or cultural reasons is not discrimination LOL. |
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8/25/11 12:16:06 PM#206
Originally posted by Normike: "-In business gay people make up same percentage as they do in the population, around 10%. Polls have shown that gay people actually have an even larger usage than that when it comes to online technology and applications. That's not "very rare." Some very good points, which I don't argue with. I do have a problem with your numbers for the percentage of gays in the general population as this is regularly reported wrong. This figure comes from the work of Alfred Kinsey, and while most researchers in this field consider his work very important for bringing up such topics, most now dispute that his subjects represented the U.S. population (he used far too many college students and prison inmates while almost completely ignoring older people, poor people, and people in rural locations). And even then, Kinsey concluded that only about 4% of men and 2% of woman identified themselves as EXCLUSIVELY homosexual, while the 10% was a number based on those who had admitted ever having a same sex attraction whether acted on or not. The more recent and must better represented 1994 Edward Laumann study puts those identifying themselves as homosexual at 2.8% of U.S. men and 1.4% of U.S. woman, roughly 6 million people. If you only count those reporting having SOME homosexual activity in their lifetimes it's 9.1% of U.S. men and 4.3% of U.S. women, or about 20 million people in the U.S. This should in NO way detract from the argument. My point is to shore it up with correct numbers, not attempt to tear it down. Discrimination against 1 is wrong, against 6,000,000 to 20,000,000 is a little harder to justify. |
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8/25/11 12:17:53 PM#207
Originally posted by Wiezard
I agree. How ever, if you are going to offer sexual relationships with NPCs, you damn sure not put a limitation on it. That is the hypocritical part. Either have it open for all, or not at all. Simple as that. Power to the Sheeple |
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8/25/11 12:18:21 PM#208
Originally posted by Wiezard We don't know that's the reason. That would be making an assumption... Lucas Arts has a policy that gay characters exist in Star Wars. George Lucas donated $50,000 to the pro gay marriage petition in California. Lucas Arts had no issue with a lesbian romance in KOTOR 1.
Until we hear from Bioware we don't know what the reason why is. They have said they will give a resposne, which is what most people are waiting for. Then I will know whether to boycott Bioware or LucasArts. Cheers! |
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8/25/11 12:19:47 PM#209
Originally posted by Wiezard Oh good lord, how many times does this need to be posted. LA has already approved gays in the SW universe with http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Goran_Beviin "Beviin was known as something of a traditionalist, and used old-fashioned equipment, including highly illegalcrushgaunts,[1] and beskar armor that was colored blue.[4] Beviin was homosexual, and settled down with his partner, Medrit Vasur, some time before 24 ABY.[1] The couple went on to adopt a daughter, Dinua Jeban. Beviin was a family man and was welcoming of guests on his farm.[2] Boba Fett thought of Beviin as all heart and courage, and not afraid of the pain of love.[3] He was the closest the anti-social Fett had to a friend.[2] Fett thought that Beviin would make a good Mandalore, but Beviin did not want to lead, and would rather stay on his farm.[5]Beviin held a deep hatred for the Yuuzhan Vong, and advocated killing every one. Beviin also held a dislike for the Jedi, and described Kubariet as "the only Jedi I've ever trusted."[3]" |
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8/25/11 12:21:18 PM#210
Originally posted by P2PGamer Not saying you are wrong. my main point is that people need to stop blaming Bioware as final decision is in hand of LA. |
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8/25/11 12:25:40 PM#211
Originally posted by P2PGamer You act as if allowing homosexual relationships is as easy as just flicking a switch when I really don't think this is the case. It's highly likely that a lot of the romance dialog/cutscenes are gender specific. This means that BW would have to make specific homosexual romance dialog for each and every class. This is a lot of work. In addition, they would have to make sure that every class had at least one female and male companion available to them that is bisexual or gay. And personally, I hate the solution of making EVERY companion bisexual or gay like is was in DA2. It just makes the game feel cheesy and unrealistic. It takes away from the character building BW tries to do because you know that making all companions bisexual is basically just a contrivance. Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob? |
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8/25/11 12:26:30 PM#212
Originally posted by Leoghan Didn't you post this earlier? one character out of hundereds of prominent characters in SW universe? and if you read my posts i never said anything about approving or disapproving. Ofcourse gays exist in SW universe but that doesn't mean that LA would allow Bioware to put them in fore front as main and prominent characters. It is their IP their story they can twist, it change it as they like. Now if Luke was gay one would say 'hey the main character in SW was gay the most crucial character, so why not add it in videogames'. How many even heard of Beviin? such an obsecure and un important character. The fact is that LA never intended to bring same sex relationships and gay characters in focus. They exist yes but LA is not acknowledging them something to focus on in SWTOR. |
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8/25/11 12:29:51 PM#213
Humans aren't the only animals that have and practice homosexuality, so please explain how it isn't natural. Men and women weren't designed, we evolved and will one day be gone just like everything else. Did gay kill the dinosaurs? If my legs are crushed in an industrial press at work and must be amputated in a hospital is that natural or am I not really handicapped? I won't call you a homophobe although you seem far too eager to self-identify with that. I will suggest you may be ignorant and fearful, but both of those can be easily overcome. Once you know the actual truth about people and lose the fear, life around other people different than you becomes so much easier. |
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8/25/11 12:33:52 PM#214
Originally posted by Wiezard Your argument is that this is a Lucas Arts call, but we have no evidence to suggest that Lucas Arts made that call, in fact we have evidence to the contrary that they would have a problem with gays in the SW universe. This game isn't about playing Luke or Obi Wan or Vader, it is about playing "a" character in the SW universe not about "the" characters. |
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8/25/11 12:35:13 PM#215
Originally posted by Creslin321 I'll bet if they only made one class per side have the option of a gay relationship most people would be ok with that. There would be grumbling, but I doubt you'd see the anger that you are seeing now. |
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8/25/11 12:36:42 PM#216
Originally posted by hundejahre Just to add to this, here is an article about scientists that are able to manipulate the sexual orientation of fruit flies by playing with their genes and their brains: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,316316,00.html Sure makes it seem like homosexuality has some kind of natural physical component. Personally, I believe that people can be born gay or straight and can also "learn" to be gay or straight through socialization. Don't believe me? Just look at the culture of ancient Greece. Many men (especially soldiers) were encouraged to engage in gay relationships and they did so. You can also look at girls in the modern era that experiment with homosexuality to gain attention. Basically, humans are complicated. I don't think it's as simple as "you're born gay" or "you learn gay." It can probably be both. Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob? |
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8/25/11 12:37:25 PM#217
Originally posted by hundejahre Disagree with those numbers. Just because there's a huge amount of prejudice and stigma towards gays, lesbians, and bisexuals. As a result many are in the closest just because it's easier. They don't have to deal with losing a job, losing friends, losing their family members due to prejudice. All you have to do is look at the news of all these "straight" married men caught cheating with another man. It's the same reason that many biracial people in the US used to try to pass as white, and often simply told themselves they were white. Because of the stigma and prejudice. The same is true for being gay. It's a trait that some people can hide, there is no heredity to trace either as with race. The most popular recent example is married republican state representative Phil Hinkle of Indiana that was caught soliciting sex from an 18 year old male for $80. His current statement is "I'm not gay. I don't know what I was thinking." These people are not going to put a tick next to gay, lesbian, bisexual, or transgendered on a survey no matter how anonymous it is. The do not identify as gay, lesbian, bisexual, or transgendered even though they beyond a doubt they are. So in the end you have a poll that is asking people to voluntarily anonymously tell what their sexuality is. The pol will always be wrong. Now when we get quick and easy walk-through brain scanning then you'll get more honsesty about the percentage of gays, lesbians, bisexuals, and transgendered people in the population. And that time is not very far off at all. |
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8/25/11 12:38:50 PM#218
Maybe I'm just way off here... though this is how I see it. Its a RPG. Each character has his own personality. They are not dictating your own character, just the companions. Now to think ANYONE would find love with the very few companions you have, is just rare. Even more so probly if you swing that way. If the # of companions was massive, I would be like wth! Though the pool of NPC companions is not massive. So none of your companions are into you. Ok thats how life is for the most part no? Its rare over all to find love in small groups for anyone. This does not change who you are. I just don't like the argument that you have a set group of people, and they must be a mix of everything to make everyone happen. Be it moves, commercials, everything. Thats not real to me, thats not how the world works. There other players out there who you can find that will fit you better. People try to cater to everyone too much. I find leaving it to people to find there own happense is more rewarding, cause its more rare. Thats why I play MMO's, for the other players, not the NPC's. Sorry if I come off as a jerk, I just don't see why people are so upset. There is so much more to the game. And if this one thing is what your looking for, its still could be there among the player base, just not the NPC's. |
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8/25/11 12:39:07 PM#219
Originally posted by Elikal
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8/25/11 12:39:23 PM#220
Originally posted by Leoghan it is called common sense and lessons learned from history of SW and how LA like to control SW IP. And what evidence you have to contrary? an obsecure and forgettable character called Beviin who makes no impact or difference to SW universe? there is difference between acknowledging that gay exists in SW universe and whole different matter to put them in front as main characters. it would be foolish to think that Bioware is dictating LA to what to do or what not to do with their IP. |
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