Hi all

With more info on WvW having been released, it's made me think about guild co-operation and alignment.

The 2 x week 'world' events will require a fair amount of co-operation between guilds in order to achieve major objectives such as keep lords etc. My question to all of you is:

"Do we as gamers have the level of co-operation necessary to make WvW a success?"

I have my doubts...

Over the past few years I have seen a general decline in the gaming community overall. Forums seem to contain a lot more vitriol than they once did. I see less guild alignments within MMO's than in the past. I don't like to make WoW comparisons but it seems relevant here. In the days of WoW, guild alignments were often a complicated and messy business. Guilds had different objectives from each other which often led to 'falling outs'. Difference of opinions and strategy between guild leaders were common. Personality clashes often resulted in guild alignments not going ahead. Has communication and co-operation improved since then, I would argue no. This is where my main concern lies:

"Do we have the capacity to work together like we haven't done before?"

Discuss.....

I think we have the capacity, other games have shown that. But game developers have bene so focused on Solo content and questing..  that coperating hasn't been neccissary outside instanced stuff like raids or dungeons..

If they build it, we will come.   thats my take anyway.

Originally posted by lappas

Hi all

 

With more info on WvW having been released, it's made me think about guild co-operation and alignment.

 

The 2 x week 'world' events will require a fair amount of co-operation between guilds in order to achieve major objectives such as keep lords etc. My question to all of you is:

 

"Do we as gamers have the level of co-operation necessary to make WvW a success?"

 

I have my doubts...

 

Over the past few years I have seen a general decline in the gaming community overall. Forums seem to contain a lot more vitriol than they once did. I see less guild alignments within MMO's than in the past. I don't like to make WoW comparisons but it seems relevant here. In the days of WoW, guild alignments were often a complicated and messy business. Guilds had different objectives from each other which often led to 'falling outs'. Difference of opinions and strategy between guild leaders were common. Personality clashes often resulted in guild alignments not going ahead. Has communication and co-operation improved since then, I would argue no. This is where my main concern lies:

 

"Do we have the capacity to work together like we haven't done before?"

 

Discuss.....

 

Well if they dont its just going to be a very static battle.

they will just have to have some form of co-operation to take certain points, they raise these issues very well on the latest guildcast tbh, if arena net imploment some form of shoutout system where you can be told if your server is taking or being attacked at a certain points guild co op wouldnt be needed right ? since people will go to that point in the servers best interest.

In my full opinion though large guilds will need the co operation, and they can head for big objectives, whilst smaller guilds or even guildless teams can take the smaller objectives without much needed co op.

On the issue of guild co op though, it could be made easier due to the fact you can join more than one guild, guilds dont need to rely just on forums or private chat, they can just switch between different guilds and discuss.

Originally posted by lappas

Hi all

 

With more info on WvW having been released, it's made me think about guild co-operation and alignment.

 

The 2 x week 'world' events will require a fair amount of co-operation between guilds in order to achieve major objectives such as keep lords etc. My question to all of you is:

 

"Do we as gamers have the level of co-operation necessary to make WvW a success?"

 

I have my doubts...

 

Over the past few years I have seen a general decline in the gaming community overall. Forums seem to contain a lot more vitriol than they once did. I see less guild alignments within MMO's than in the past. I don't like to make WoW comparisons but it seems relevant here. In the days of WoW, guild alignments were often a complicated and messy business. Guilds had different objectives from each other which often led to 'falling outs'. Difference of opinions and strategy between guild leaders were common. Personality clashes often resulted in guild alignments not going ahead. Has communication and co-operation improved since then, I would argue no. This is where my main concern lies:

 

"Do we have the capacity to work together like we haven't done before?"

 

Discuss.....

 

guild alliances were a staple of GW and that's what you should be looking at, not the WoW(and Wow bastard child) community.

Game rules largely determine player behavior.

That's a fact.

Recent  rise of selfishness and asocial behavior in mmos is largely caused by game mechanics which reward asocial behavior, mostly unintentionally through poorly thought-out design. If you reward players who behave like dorks, they will tend to behave like dorks. It's game design 101.

So, if ANet makes WvW ruleset conductive to altruistic behavior, primarily in terms of rewards, I'm 100% certain you'll see rise in friendliness. If their strategic meta-game clearly gives individual rewards for coordinated play, we'll see an increase in player cooperation and coordination.

That's it really, nothing else to say.

Personally I'm sick and tired of this "players are getting worse" argument. That's just hand-washing on the devs part. Humans are exactly the same as they were 10.000 years ago. No, the players haven't suddenly grown bestial in the past 10 years. That's a simplistic and patently false argument.

Originally posted by Pilnkplonk

Game rules largely determine player behavior.

That's a fact.

Recent  rise of selfishness and asocial behavior in mmos is largely caused by game mechanics which reward asocial behavior, mostly unintentionally through poorly thought-out design. If you reward players who behave like dorks, they will tend to behave like dorks. It's game design 101.

So, if ANet makes WvW ruleset conductive to altruistic behavior, primarily in terms of rewards, I'm 100% certain you'll see rise in friendliness. If their strategic meta-game clearly gives individual rewards for coordinated play, we'll see an increase in player cooperation and coordination.

That's it really, nothing else to say.

 And you said your brain was hurting in the other forum started by Sanctum lol. I agree with the statement 100% and need not add anything to it. Simple answer is the best I am finding.

This will be a non-issue.

People will eventually look for leadership and roles, it happens in all games.

WAR is a good example.

Originally posted by lappas

"Do we as gamers have the level of co-operation necessary to make WvW a success?"

 

I have my doubts...

I agree with you and have the same doubts.... Look at the Bg's in WoW or even the team based FPS like MAG or BF3... People just run off wildly and do what they want to do. They are concerned with their own agenda. Unless you have large guilds linked together talking on vent or ts, it will be an unorganized mess. There would have to be communication and a direct need for people to work together to make it work. We'll have to wait and see how it is implemented.....

Originally posted by Rivalen

This will be a non-issue.

People will eventually look for leadership and roles, it happens in all games.

WAR is a good example.

Yeah, after they managed to balance out the rewards etc for RvR the things took off. When everyone benefitted from winning you saw spontaneous leadership and all take place. Someone just appeared on chat and started coordinating things and other players followed because they knew that they will individually benefit if they win collectively.

No direct rewards for leadership also meant that only the people who honestly thought they can help their side win applied for the job. And the lack of direct exclusive tools for it meant that the players followed only those who made sense or had a good reputation as generals. In short, the ugly ego-games were largely absent from it. Really I consider this the finest moment WAR achieved... and that's why I'm against any kind of formal, in-game tools for "leader" positions. This should be left entirely to players and WAR suffered when they introduced warband and guild leader exclusive chat channels, for example.

Originally posted by stevebmbsqd

Originally posted by lappas

"Do we as gamers have the level of co-operation necessary to make WvW a success?"

 

I have my doubts...

I agree with you and have the same doubts.... Look at the Bg's in WoW or even the team based FPS like MAG or BF3... People just run off wildly and do what they want to do. They are concerned with their own agenda. Unless you have large guilds linked together talking on vent or ts, it will be an unorganized mess. There would have to be communication and a direct need for people to work together to make it work. We'll have to wait and see how it is implemented.....

It's a matter of how you structure the rewards.

If you reward only personal kills, for example, you'll see selfish, chaotic behavior and elitism.

If you reward team wins only, you'll see coordinted play, but also afking and frustration from the feeling of helplessness.

It's a matter of designer skill to balance individual and collective rewards to produce the environment conductive to the type of behavior, the "mood" of the game that you want.

Yeah, sure, WoW's small-minded design may have allowed for the skills of guilds to coordinate to diminish over time, but it is possible and it will happen. In DAoC, we had very large guild alliances that got together and accomplished many things. Relic Raids in RvR pretty much required it. 

In one word.  YES.

I know there are a ton of players that dont care about cooperation.  That type of player will not accomplish anything in WvW pvp.

The fact that we are even asking this questions shows you how much the clone wars era of mmo's has damamged the image of a good mmo player.

As a member of a guild that is capable of cooperation an a massive scale I have no worries that the WvW portion of this game will suceed.  Granted you will always have that WoW player out in the middle of no where saying look I can do it alone as he/she gets slaughtered and accomplishes nothing at all.

Yes.

I don't think it will be as big of an issue as you might think. The type of gamers Anet tends to attract seem to use a little more strategy when they play. Plus, your entire server will be gaining the benefits of capturing those objectives, so there will be quite a few people incentivised to capture them.

A few key guilds seem to do most of the heavy lifting on each server for things like this, now a days. I'm sure we will see that manifest in GW2 as well. However, I like that that are many useful things for smaller guilds and groups to accomplish in WvWvW. Although it may be ideal to coordinate with someone from a large, organized and efficient guild, it isn't always practical or worth the hassle. I can easily see even a guild that can only assemble 4-8 people for an excursion into The Mists making a difference by focusing on resource points and other small group objectives.

Originally posted by Pilnkplonk

Game rules largely determine player behavior.

That's a fact.

Recent  rise of selfishness and asocial behavior in mmos is largely caused by game mechanics which reward asocial behavior, mostly unintentionally through poorly thought-out design. If you reward players who behave like dorks, they will tend to behave like dorks. It's game design 101.

So, if ANet makes WvW ruleset conductive to altruistic behavior, primarily in terms of rewards, I'm 100% certain you'll see rise in friendliness. If their strategic meta-game clearly gives individual rewards for coordinated play, we'll see an increase in player cooperation and coordination.

That's it really, nothing else to say.

Personally I'm sick and tired of this "players are getting worse" argument. That's just hand-washing on the devs part. Humans are exactly the same as they were 10.000 years ago. No, the players haven't suddenly grown bestial in the past 10 years. That's a simplistic and patently false argument.

I agree totally (as I do with many of your posts Plinkplonk).

The playerbase, if they really are rusty on the old communication and co-ordination skills, will quickly relearn them.

I for one am looking forward to the sense of community that will develop within a server.. after all you are working with these people.

DaoC had this.  High levels would assist lowbies because they knew that that person might one day be another body helping out on the warfronts.  GW2 PvE mechanics (i.e. shared nodes / rewards) seems to encourage this even more strongly.

WvWvW is going to create a sense of comradery that the MMO community has lacked for too long.

As many other's have said, this will probably turn out to be a non-issue. To arrive at your answer, look at the overall design of the game, and the goals of ANet.

GW2 is being built, from the ground up, as a cooperative game. You can run around solo in the overworld during Dynamic Events, but those immediately around you are also "grouped" with you. Having others around is not going to be detrimental in GW2 as in traditional themepark games. Your rewards during PvE leveling aren't lessened by having others around, quite the opposite. Your experience becomes more interesting the more folks you have around.

This will most likely hold true in PvP. You are going to be so used to working with others from the PvE side of things, that it's a natural progression to also cooperate with those around you in PvP.

Again, like other's have said, look to games like WAR, GW1, and DAoC to see how well the community cooperates within these systems.

Originally posted by Pilnkplonk

Game rules largely determine player behavior.

That's a fact.

Recent  rise of selfishness and asocial behavior in mmos is largely caused by game mechanics which reward asocial behavior, mostly unintentionally through poorly thought-out design. If you reward players who behave like dorks, they will tend to behave like dorks. It's game design 101.

So, if ANet makes WvW ruleset conductive to altruistic behavior, primarily in terms of rewards, I'm 100% certain you'll see rise in friendliness. If their strategic meta-game clearly gives individual rewards for coordinated play, we'll see an increase in player cooperation and coordination.

That's it really, nothing else to say.

Personally I'm sick and tired of this "players are getting worse" argument. That's just hand-washing on the devs part. Humans are exactly the same as they were 10.000 years ago. No, the players haven't suddenly grown bestial in the past 10 years. That's a simplistic and patently false argument.

Well said.

Originally posted by Pilnkplonk

Game rules largely determine player behavior.

That's a fact.

Recent  rise of selfishness and asocial behavior in mmos is largely caused by game mechanics which reward asocial behavior, mostly unintentionally through poorly thought-out design. If you reward players who behave like dorks, they will tend to behave like dorks. It's game design 101.

So, if ANet makes WvW ruleset conductive to altruistic behavior, primarily in terms of rewards, I'm 100% certain you'll see rise in friendliness. If their strategic meta-game clearly gives individual rewards for coordinated play, we'll see an increase in player cooperation and coordination.

That's it really, nothing else to say.

Personally I'm sick and tired of this "players are getting worse" argument. That's just hand-washing on the devs part. Humans are exactly the same as they were 10.000 years ago. No, the players haven't suddenly grown bestial in the past 10 years. That's a simplistic and patently false argument.

QFT

One of the best posts I have seen on MMORPG.com in a while. Well done sir, well done.

Originally posted by Pilnkplonk

Game rules largely determine player behavior.

That's a fact.

Recent  rise of selfishness and asocial behavior in mmos is largely caused by game mechanics which reward asocial behavior, mostly unintentionally through poorly thought-out design. If you reward players who behave like dorks, they will tend to behave like dorks. It's game design 101.

So, if ANet makes WvW ruleset conductive to altruistic behavior, primarily in terms of rewards, I'm 100% certain you'll see rise in friendliness. If their strategic meta-game clearly gives individual rewards for coordinated play, we'll see an increase in player cooperation and coordination.

That's it really, nothing else to say.

Personally I'm sick and tired of this "players are getting worse" argument. That's just hand-washing on the devs part. Humans are exactly the same as they were 10.000 years ago. No, the players haven't suddenly grown bestial in the past 10 years. That's a simplistic and patently false argument.

I agree, sadly I think a lot of devs get this wrong re: game rules. I'm working on my faith that ANet get it right. Having said that, yes, we are 'creatures of the environment'. With the rise of single player RPG's, I don't think it will be a natural progression to guild co-op. I think it's something that will require a fair amount of work from a lot of players. Levels of communication will need to be accelerated to a level that I haven't seen for some time.

I can see that Anet has worked hard on promoting co-op eg live events and I fully support this. But WvW is an entirely different beast. One that I hope that most players embrace.

It will be interesting to see how ANet 'promotes' good behaviour by players. Hopefully we will find out a little more this week.

Well, I was in a 10 guild alliance in DAoC, I think people will do the same in GW2.  Depending on how many people are there from a certain guild, you could give out roles, and organize that way, with someone keeping tabs with the main force.  I believe the servers with good records will be doing this....Those that go out there with no plan, they probably will be low on the list, but thats ok too I guess, because you will probably end up after a month or so pairs up with servers that play the same way.

If you aren't in a big guild, you can just kind of go do your thing and figure it out, but decent sized guild probably will want a plan, if you have 3-5 things to defend/siege/raid, and everyone just wants to stay together, you probably smash the one thing, but the other side will have the other 2-4 things done and 'win'...Will have to see how it all works, but usually total chaos work too well.  I would think atleast the majority would need a plan to do well.