[quote] When WoW launched, it had *one* weekly raid. Three battlegrounds. No Arena. No top-level Hard mode dungeons. Almost every quest in the game was a kill 10 quest.

If everyone had held WoW to the standards you mentioned above, it wouldn't have had a single subscriber.[/quote]

Want to know what it did have though? It had a plan. Everything in Wow, corresponded to a reason for being there.. Every part of the land was developed and designed for that creature being there, or that resource being there, and being there for a purpose.. The game was incredibly laid out..A long lost art in game design.. Then they took rule #1 of any game and worked on it..

99.9% of any game is its interface... Any real game developer knows this.. EA doesnt know this.. knows $ and Monopoliptic practices, and how to get college students to script crap for cash. Developer? Programmers? UI Design? waste of money...

(this part isn't directed at the op just the commenters on his post): Just love how people automatically decided that mmo's absolutely HAVE to be all about 1: the end game only and nothing in between 2: the endless grinding of the gear treadmill and nothing else 3: raid content that is the only story content (other then the solo story) of the game and only 5% of the populous of any game title should be able to see it at any given time.

MMO's are not supposed to be these boxed in boring cliche's they are supposed to be fun, just because company after company has tried in vain to get the wow population by copy/pasting these same things over and over again doesn't mean this is all an MMO can/should be.

Good for you two if more people stopped paying these companies it might actually send a message to future developers ("Yeah we should do a game like World of Warcraft, that will bring in revenue", george the ceo said. "Uh boss, we don't want to do that, remember that other game that was the last one to try that, yeah they lost all their subscribers") In an ideal world. sigh.

It's not enough anymore, if it were these games would have killed WoW a long time ago. Like anything dealing with software it has to grow and evolve and become more user friendly to survive especially on a medium like the internet and if success is measured by barely making ends meet in profits then i guess they have all been very successful.

To the op: I hope you find a game that fits your play style the rest of us who don't pvp will continue our search. Good luck to you.

Originally posted by bossalinie

Originally posted by iceman00

Originally posted by bossalinie

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by Cthulhu23

Originally posted by nobottters

Nope, just saying, sometimes its hard to walk away and you catch yourself wasting your life.. in this case, i am telling people, if you are feeling anything like us.. its best to walk away and you'll feel better... I'm glad you can be entertained watching cutscenes, i seriously applaud you, that is not what we want out of a MMO..

 

As stated, i spent 7 years playing with the same group of regulars, its a tough habit to leave, but this had to be done and I dont feel bad anymore.. I on the contrary, more happier than the last 4 weeks of playing this MMO

If you want to hand out cookies however, im all for gratuity!

Good luck in your gaming

 

 

Yeah, because that's all this game is, a series of cutscenes.  I'm happy for you that you are able to walk away, because in all honesty, if all you got out of this game was a series of cutscenes, then it obviously wasn't for you.   Please ignore the fact that it has every bit of the content that every other themepark MMO has, however.  

Yep, no doubt, it has everything most other theme park games have like,

1) Customizable player housing like EQ2, Vanguard and some others. Oh wait, no it doesn't, there's a ship, but not much of a house and limited in customization options.

2)  Arena style combat zones like WOW or GW1.  Oh no, wait, it doesn't have those either, but it does have BG's

3)  Guild housing, banks and bonuses. Oh no, wait, it doesn't have them yet, coming soon _[TM]

4)  Customizable UI like WOW, LotRO, and 1/2 a dozen other titles.  On no, wait, also coming soon.

5) LFG and LFR finders, like WOW, Rift and some others.  OK, they're doing something right here. 

OK, I'll give you that SWTOR has all the basics, and I'm sure they'll implement most of the above in the near future.

But what I'd really like to see is for them to come up with something unique to their title, something reallly different.

 

 

I would say a good 80% of what you mentioned of their games weren't in at launch.

What's even more ironic is that you want SWTOR to include everything from all other games and still be unique.

 

So what if those games didn't include them at launch?  The gaming market isn't static.  Things develop.  This isn't 2004 anymore.  This is 2012.  You should have at least some of these things at launch.

A lot of these things are MMO 101.  Most games can include at least 50% of those things mentioned, yet still do some of those things which are unique.  Guild Wars offered tons of customization in the way you played your toon.  WoW offered a sheer massive amount of content, as well as things like arenas.

Just because it's not 50% of the things you wanted doesn't mean they didn't include anything. 

Again, you mention arenas, but it wasn't introduced until after BC. What's worse? How many games had arenas after WoW?

Arenas became a rather themeparky standard after BC.  It was something implemented.  The industry adapts.

All those things that have been listed, you responded "well most games didn't include them at launch."  Everyone is simply pointing out what a weak response that is.  Might as well be the soft bigotry of low expectations.  "Sure they don't include the standards, but they are better than a game that was launched in 2004 and only spent a tenth of the resources we did!"

Originally posted by Rollgunner

Originally posted by spaceport

There is simply nothing else to do, i have never seen an AAA MMO with so little content, 3 warzones, kill 10 quests... where is the massive in this game? where is the PVP? and the crafting? lol... everything is garbage.

 

 

WoW was a AAA title...

When WoW launched, it had *one* weekly raid. Three battlegrounds. No Arena. No top-level Hard mode dungeons. Almost every quest in the game was a kill 10 quest.

If everyone had held WoW to the standards you mentioned above, it wouldn't have had a single subscriber.

A lot of people seem to be disappointed that a game that has had one month of subscriber feedback doesn't have all the features that, over the course of many years, other MMOs have developed.

It takes time and feedback to make a great MMO. You can't anticipate what your audience will want until they are playing the game. It's a step-by-step process, with hundreds of iterations.

"Crash programs fail because they are based on the assumption that with nine pregnant women, you can get a baby in one month." - Werner Von Braun

 

And pray tell, what year did WoW launch?

Originally posted by Zlayer77

Originally posted by k-damage

Originally posted by Zlayer77

Originally posted by nikoliath

Originally posted by Afterlife

You guys should probably stick to a different genre...

I'm not sure "quiting" an MMO is a real accomplishment.

Indeed. Are these guys looking for applause? Acceptance? 

Dont mind these 2. I applaude you good Jobb lads, lets hope more people come to their senses so we can sink this shit faster...

Even if I don't like the game right now, just ... why would you want to sink that ship ?

Do you have EA stocks to dump or what ?

I dislike EA yes..for many reasons. I also dislike all these developers who keep pushing the same crap out and failing. I mean Its like living in deja vu land. How many times now have this happend since 2004? Cant they they see the Pattern? or are these games actually profitabal with low populations and as Free to play games? I guess they are because otherwise why bother making them???

The problem is you think these developers "fail".  When in fact, they are very successful.  Tons of MMO's out there that are so called failures really do make their company money.  Just because YOU dont like the game doesn;t me they failed.

All you cry babies out there should really take a look into what exactly goes into making these games.  Maybe step in the shoes of Devs for a change and stop living in a fantasy land where YOUR perfect game is king and everything else is fail.  Or better yet, spend 6 years of your life working full time on a project and post it on here so we can all tell you how YOU fail at life.

Originally posted by h0urg1ass

Yesterday I finished my Champion set on my Shadow.  Today I hit 45 on my Commando.  I tried questing on the commando, but I found the planets and quests so lifeless and boring that I literally couldn't stand doing them.  So I have PVP'd pretty much every single level on him except for the two planets I can even stomach landing on (Tatooine - Quesh).

I only land on planets now to spacebar through the storyline quests which consist of "blah blah blah" from some NPC followed by "This is how Havoc Squad gets things done!" over and over no matter what dialogue option I actually picked.

As soon as I hit 45 on my Commando (Valor 40) I sat there for a few minutes thinking about queuing up for another Warzone and I realized something... I'm just not having fun anymore.  The same three warzones over and over for hours with the same 20 people that queu up with you is soul sucking.

Ilum is a joke.  The Imps outnumer us 3:1 on our server.  At any given time of day I can log onto my lvl 10 Imp at the Imp fleet and their numbers will be three times ours, and the same goes for Ilum.  They control it 24/7 flat out.  The only way to get your dailies is to convince enough people to go with you and die repeatedly in the hopes of getting enough lucky kills to turn in.

The ability delays are just killing me as are the fact that some of our Mirrors have abilities that look the same, but have drastically different actual effects.  For instance, no one on the republic side gets a several second long AoE stun, but it happens to us all the time.  I get near a warrior and suddenly me and everyone near him are laying on our backs.

I spent eight straight months playing World of Tanks every day, so I can stomach quite a bit of seeing the same map, but when it's with the same few dozen people and only three maps.. it just gets to be a grind instead of fun and new every time.

Just like the OP, I think I'm just bored to death and ready to move on.

I'm not gonna comment on ilum or anything else. But really, how can you be valor 40 and not able to tell the difference between stun and fear/paralyze?And your side has it also,if they don't use it then its their own fault.

Here is the the sith warrior abilty: http://www.torhead.com/ability/3UOGXiK/intimidating-roar

Here is the jedi knight ability: http://www.torhead.com/ability/6JWXPzC/awe

Tip: if a game stops being fun to you, then just quit.No drama needed.

Dang, with such a huge write up, it makes the game appear incredibly difficult to quit and worthy of applause...

I finally got to 50 today, now I won't be playin the game nearly as much anymore, but I still have a main toon to lvl on the opposing side that I'll continue to play time to time with friends/guild.

Originally posted by GMan3

Originally posted by snapfusion

Its sounds like people were expecting SWTOR to be the second coming and when it turned out to be another MMO the rage set in.

Its just a a game guys, a game bascially like any other game.   Sounds  like people are just overdosing on MMO;s and blaming the game or genre these days.

   BioWare was very honest in what they were making and for some reason some people let themselves expect too much. 

Not true.

-PVP

BW stated and I quote 'Prepare to be blown away by Ilum'. By many accounts Illum is the worst PvP players have ever experienced. That's honesty on Biowar's part? Hardly.

It's literally just a zone where whoever has the most players, generally Imperial, controlls the whole zone and the republic is stuck in 1 corner of their map. Ohh and did I mention whoever controlls the map gets about 10 times the pvp points per kill (200 vrs 20) as the low number group. The design is absolutely without thought, planning, or any sense of balance at all, it's that bad.

IMO PvP in Rift was worlds more fun(I'm level 61 in SWTOR btw). Class balance aside, Bioware has decided that everyone should have multiple stuns and CC, meaning that about 20% of your time during pvp you WILL be CC'ed or stunned, it's not fun but that's the direction they decided to go. I believe they were so consumed with balancing everything they decided if one class gets stuns then all classes should get them.

Their engine(the Hero Engine) seems outdated and unable to handle modern day large scale pvp. Rift has far higher resolution graphics and could handle large scale PvP(and PvE for that matter)  much, much smoother than SWTOR. Mind you I'm running an I7 on an ASUS MB with a EVGA GTX 590 Classified. Oh wait for whatever reason the GTX 590 locks my computer in SWTOR. Yes I sent it back to EVGA thinking it must be the card , got a new one and same thing so I'm using my older GTX 580. Even with the 590 I was getting in the teens in Ilum, sad.

-LEVELING

The world is dead. BW could take some lessons from Bethesda on this one. Most NPC just stand around, dont move, dont do anything, it's ultra static which reinforces the dead world feeling.

The game is so heavily instanced you may only see a couple of other players during your leveling experience. I feel sorry for anyone that attempts to level right now, I really do, the leveling experince is about 90% akin to a single player game.

Yes I'm ranting becuase I wanted this game to be good. I left Rift to play this game because I like the sci-fi setting, Star Wars and I believed it had potiential.  The only thing i would consider good is the voice acting of the entire quest line. I would not call the leveling experience good, again because of their decision to heavily instance the world and give no effort to make the NPC's have any semblence of life, making it feel quite dead.

Bugs, bugs and more bugs. There is litterally a pvp bug where if you win a battleground it doen't give you credit. I'ts been there for a month, Bioware knows about it, they have said it's fixed but it's still not fixed, as of last night 1/2 of my wins didnt count.. They seem ultra slow to push out bug fixes(they need to take a lesson from Rift on this one).  Seriously they will bring the servers down for 8 hours and their entire patch notes will read.....'Fixed a case where kiling other players in Illum was not giving credit', that's it. If your used to big patch notes fixing lots of issue, thats not BW.

-CURRENT AND FUTURE

Everyone knows it's bleeding customers the question is how many and can they turn it around. The game and servers were packed around Christmas time, that was really it's peak, but now my friends list of about 30 people has on average maybe 8-10 online and anyone that plays now can tell, there just isn't as many people online.

I'm reduced to logging in, doing the 2 pvp dailies and logging out. There simply isnt anything else to do. All PvE content has been beaten and it's just simply quite the borefest right now. Maybe a miracle patch will fix that but it's highly unlikely.

Originally posted by Byteboy

(I'm level 61 in SWTOR btw).

Dude... wait, what?

He's talking valor, quit being a worthless troll, seriously you make yourself look like a immature rugrat they way you try to belittle and attack everyones response and I think your even on my side of the story.. Its enough...

Back on topic, look at evidence that was gathered in this thread that I truly noticed..

1. The game is not a game.

Anyone who thinks a game is all about story and interaction to create some sort of immersion likes this game (sorry i use the term game here, i will update what i think about this below) somehow likes this crap...

And anyone who thinks wants/thinks a game should have some sort of playability thinks this game absolutley sucks..

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So here we go.. a complete segregation point has been created... Note all the people defending the game "LOVE Bioware", or "LOVE Star Wars" But do they love they game" Noone says they "LOVE the game", they do say the love the "STORY", or the "QUESTING" This is solid evidence of a game problem... When people say the game is fun, are the only ones talking about the fun are those talking about the story quest line.. Which is IMO not a game at all.. Its what I call a interactive story... A choose your own adventure movie, with the most basic and lame playability they could get away with... Not much playability here, games were made to be played if i recall growing up in an arcade my whole life, thats what we did, played games..

I think most of us who played (err i mean experienced) Dragon Age, could see the game had very little playability... I am a gamer am very sick of this... Why am i sick of this as a gamer? It's all that is made anymore.. Three are no more AAA games being made for gamers... It's sad really. No one makes  a game for gamers, because its too easy for a bunch of writers/animators to make interactive movies for a bunch of weak minded people who need to attach to a Intellectual IP of some sort of fantasy.. Thats fine you can enjoy a fantasy, but why can't we have cake and play it too? They do this cuz its easy to hitch you and they don't need to hire programmers to do it.. cha ching more pocket money

Did you know that most all development teams have guess how many programmers??? The answer is 0, they mostly now hire college students to script as they learn. Can you believe that??? 0 programmers, to program a video game...Ha!

This industry should split in two... We need interactive movies as a category, and we need video games. But for people to sit around and say that SWTOR or Dragon Age, or Mass Effect 3, etc are video games is frankly a slap in the face to any real game designer in the world. I have no problem with people liking their interactive movies, but we have very corrupt marketing departments in this world... I watched EA sports put download blocking on their football box years back and that was already in the game years prior, just never utilized or marketed and they called it NEW. It was nothing different.. I watch all these companies and how they market their game and staight up lie to their customers, its unfair to us... over the years and watch how the corruption grew 10 fold. To sit there and say this that and this is coming and or there, and then it to be complete trash... No one is accountable for anything any more... That's why its getting worse and worse... Because they can get away with it.

It's time we stand up and force this change. To be rid of these publishers that have no care other than a chart of demographics, who abuse the very teams that make them the chips.

This game sucks and every GAMER should know it

Originally posted by iceman00

Originally posted by Rollgunner

Originally posted by spaceport

There is simply nothing else to do, i have never seen an AAA MMO with so little content, 3 warzones, kill 10 quests... where is the massive in this game? where is the PVP? and the crafting? lol... everything is garbage.

 

 

WoW was a AAA title...

When WoW launched, it had *one* weekly raid. Three battlegrounds. No Arena. No top-level Hard mode dungeons. Almost every quest in the game was a kill 10 quest.

If everyone had held WoW to the standards you mentioned above, it wouldn't have had a single subscriber.

A lot of people seem to be disappointed that a game that has had one month of subscriber feedback doesn't have all the features that, over the course of many years, other MMOs have developed.

It takes time and feedback to make a great MMO. You can't anticipate what your audience will want until they are playing the game. It's a step-by-step process, with hundreds of iterations.

"Crash programs fail because they are based on the assumption that with nine pregnant women, you can get a baby in one month." - Werner Von Braun

 

And pray tell, what year did WoW launch?

That's irrelevant.  It doesn't take any less time to design, build and implement content now than it did, then.  Content isn't a "feature" like autoloot where you can build it from scratch in lieu of a standard looting system.

If you expect every game to have every feature and just as much content as games that have already been out for years, you'll be waiting indefinitely for games to launch.  Do you think Anet should postpone GW2 once Mists of Pandoria comes out, so they can bring their content and features up to date?

Originally posted by nikoliath

Originally posted by Afterlife

You guys should probably stick to a different genre...

I'm not sure "quiting" an MMO is a real accomplishment.

Indeed. Are these guys looking for applause? Acceptance? 

http://www.cracked.com/blog/the-7-stupidest-things-that-make-people-proud/

see #7

Everyone likes different things from an MMO, and there's nothing wrong with that.   Personally, I love the cutscenes and refuse to spacebar through any of 'em, they're part of the reason I bought this game.

I do not, nor ever have, joined an MMO to 'make friends'.   Even today, I resent each and every forced group quest, particularly the endgame.

I like MMOs because they are simply so much more game than a single-player one.   I finish games like Mass Effect or Fallout in a week or less.   I like the auction house of MMOs, the persistant world, the constant updates and improvements, etc.    I like seeing other people running around, doing their thing, it makes the game more alive than an SP game ever could be.   And I do like the option of grouping up if I feel like it.

SWTOR is not perfect, and I certainly have my own little list of annoyances with the game, but I do very much enjoy the stories, and will play it at least long enough to finish every class story.   After that, we'll see.

Originally posted by SwampRob

Everyone likes different things from an MMO, and there's nothing wrong with that.   Personally, I love the cutscenes and refuse to spacebar through any of 'em, they're part of the reason I bought this game.

I do not, nor ever have, joined an MMO to 'make friends'.   Even today, I resent each and every forced group quest, particularly the endgame.

I like MMOs because they are simply so much more game than a single-player one.   I finish games like Mass Effect or Fallout in a week or less.   I like the auction house of MMOs, the persistant world, the constant updates and improvements, etc.    I like seeing other people running around, doing their thing, it makes the game more alive than an SP game ever could be.   And I do like the option of grouping up if I feel like it.

SWTOR is not perfect, and I certainly have my own little list of annoyances with the game, but I do very much enjoy the stories, and will play it at least long enough to finish every class story.   After that, we'll see.

Even when you're not constantly grouping with people, the choice of playing an MMO, for me, is one of existentialism.

If a tree falls in the forest and no one was there to hear it...

That's what's wrong in even the most sophisticated single player games.  The game may be so free to your will that you could cut down every tree in the gaming world and build one big tree from the wood.  But what good is that freedom if you're the only one to see your accomplishments?  It's not a vanity thing for me; there's just this subconcious feeling of pointlessness for me in playing SPG's, anymore, to the point to where I hardly ever play them.

Originally posted by Robsolf

Originally posted by iceman00

Originally posted by Rollgunner

Originally posted by spaceport

There is simply nothing else to do, i have never seen an AAA MMO with so little content, 3 warzones, kill 10 quests... where is the massive in this game? where is the PVP? and the crafting? lol... everything is garbage.

 

 

WoW was a AAA title...

When WoW launched, it had *one* weekly raid. Three battlegrounds. No Arena. No top-level Hard mode dungeons. Almost every quest in the game was a kill 10 quest.

If everyone had held WoW to the standards you mentioned above, it wouldn't have had a single subscriber.

A lot of people seem to be disappointed that a game that has had one month of subscriber feedback doesn't have all the features that, over the course of many years, other MMOs have developed.

It takes time and feedback to make a great MMO. You can't anticipate what your audience will want until they are playing the game. It's a step-by-step process, with hundreds of iterations.

"Crash programs fail because they are based on the assumption that with nine pregnant women, you can get a baby in one month." - Werner Von Braun

 

And pray tell, what year did WoW launch?

That's irrelevant.  It doesn't take any less time to design, build and implement content now than it did, then.  Content isn't a "feature" like autoloot where you can build it from scratch in lieu of a standard looting system.

If you expect every game to have every feature and just as much content as games that have already been out for years, you'll be waiting indefinitely for games to launch.  Do you think Anet should postpone GW2 once Mists of Pandoria comes out, so they can bring their content and features up to date?

When you are spending 200 mill (one of the most expensive MMO's around), yes, you really can accomplish things with a lot more efficiency, provided you use your resources right.  And yes, you actually can create stuff a little faster.  Why?

Because a lot of stuf fhas happened since 2004.  During that time, you had to be a little more innovative.  Right now, it doesn't take a lot of innovation to design a customizable UI.  It is pretty standard stuff for an MMO nowadays.

But to answer your question, no, Anet shouldn't scrap everything.  Yet I never said anything like that.  I wasn't talking about "content."  Most of the stuff I was talking about was pretty content neutral.  An intuitive LFG/LFR system is not "content."  A customizable UI is not "content."  Using ambient sounds and NPCs who actually have a bit of life to them is not "content."

When I hear these things, I hear "well WoW and other games didn't have them at launch."  Indeed, and that was 10 years ago.  A bit has changed in the industry in 10 years.

Originally posted by nobottters

Nope, just saying, sometimes its hard to walk away and you catch yourself wasting your life.. in this case, i am telling people, if you are feeling anything like us.. its best to walk away and you'll feel better... I'm glad you can be entertained watching cutscenes, i seriously applaud you, that is not what we want out of a MMO..

 

As stated, i spent 7 years playing with the same group of regulars, its a tough habit to leave, but this had to be done and I dont feel bad anymore.. I on the contrary, more happier than the last 4 weeks of playing this MMO

If you want to hand out cookies however, im all for gratuity!

Good luck in your gaming

 

 

Cookies?   MMMmmmm....    Cookies...

I've moved onto Rift.   Better world as far as visuals.   But, more importantly, if feels alive (instead a bunch of cardboard NPC waiting for me to kill) and there's a great commmunity.

For example, people actually chat in chat.   I could be at Fleet and except for LFG calls, there'd be nothing.  If I was on a starter world, maybe some "where do I find this' chat, but otherwise nothing...    When I left the starter world and moved up to the next world...   All I'd read is 'where is the GTM?'  or 'where are the vendors...'  

It was static and dead.   It was the least-community MMO I've ever played.   And I started pre-PvP-flag UO.   Haven't played all the time.  There have been some gaps in the early 2000's...    But since 2005 and my first foray into Eve Online, I've been subscribed to one MMO or another, sometimes multiple...   

Even EQ2, which I played for two months prior to SWTOR has a more-alive and interesting group of people.    If I hadn't played it to death, I'd go back and stick with it. 

Originally posted by iceman00

When you are spending 200 mill (one of the most expensive MMO's around), yes, you really can accomplish things with a lot more efficiency, provided you use your resources right.  And yes, you actually can create stuff a little faster.  Why?

Because a lot of stuf fhas happened since 2004.  During that time, you had to be a little more innovative.  Right now, it doesn't take a lot of innovation to design a customizable UI.  It is pretty standard stuff for an MMO nowadays.

But to answer your question, no, Anet shouldn't scrap everything.  Yet I never said anything like that.  I wasn't talking about "content."  Most of the stuff I was talking about was pretty content neutral.  An intuitive LFG/LFR system is not "content."  A customizable UI is not "content."  Using ambient sounds and NPCs who actually have a bit of life to them is not "content."

When I hear these things, I hear "well WoW and other games didn't have them at launch."  Indeed, and that was 10 years ago.  A bit has changed in the industry in 10 years.

I'll just point out that LOTRO had more end-game content than SWTOR despite the fact they had some serious financial issues because DDO was such a failure and had to release six-months before they finished the main campaign.

So I don't buy off on the whole 'it's a new property' garbage.   If Turbine, close to going under, could put out more content (and in a highly regarded intial release manner) than BioWare...    With, probably, one-tenth to one-eighth the budget...

BioWare just threw their money down the rat-hole of all those side-quest VAs and animations...    The ones you listen to ONCE then spacebar through the 2nd, 3rd, 4th time through...    I mean, really , fully VA and animate something that is essentially a KILL 10 RATS QUEST?   You must be joking.