Originally posted by klapdoor
...something that isn't an opinion, but fact: The current genre called MMORPGs evolved from its predecessor called MUD's. For those of you who weren't even born at the height of its popularity: MUDs were text based online adventure RPG's. The world was build up out of small sections/chambers, each with its own description, possible occupants/enemies and directions/exits. The whole goal of the game was to be able to have a fun adventure in an environment that would constantly be updated and expanded. It was a hobby and a passion, designed by and for people who craved the style of those early dungeon crawling games (like Zork for example), but would like to play in an (nearly) endless world and meet other like minded adventurers on your path. A few facts on MUDs related to this 'discussion':
- Grouping essentially did not exist. Most MUDs were not designed with grouping in mind and the technology at the time did not encourage it. You could 'band' together, but that was meant as a sociable and mostly roleplaying option. It was not a requirement.
- Adventure and story line were the key words. The most successful MUDs were those who had the best designed environment and quests (remember, still text only).
- Min/max-ing was something essentially unheard of. In most MUDs you could allocate your basic stat points, and you could sure 'gimp' yourself if you allocated wrongly, but in almost all cases you could still adventure through the world without any issues. In fact, a lot of people 'gimped' their characters on purpouse as it was a lot of fun to do (oh damn, again that word 'fun'), in true pen and paper D&D style.
- Unfortunately most of this changed in the latest generations of MUDs onward.
Eh? What are you banging on about? When were we talking about MUDs? Why the unasked for history lesson in what we all know?
May as well talk about D&D... or Chainmail even...
One builds on the other, sure, but you are ludicrous to talk about the MUD model when we are discussing MMORPGs.
They are a very different animal, so everything you bothered to type here is irrellevant in the discussion.
Gotta love psuedo intellectuals eh?
I'm truly sorry that my 'unasked-for history lesson' so thoroughly confused you, but I cannot be bothered to put it all in simpeler terms. Yet if you realy want to make the argument of it being a different animal, then you should start considering that games like WoW are the next step in the evolution of the MMO genre...
As should have been obvious from what I wrote, It wasnt what you wrote the confused me, just why you wrote it.
Simpler terms are really not necessary, I promise, but a I am still confused by your need to give an unasked for history lesson... That has nothing to do with the discussion at hand... Bewildering.
It isn't as bewildering as you think if you understand why I wrote that. But it seems that your own opinion on how the MMO genre should suit your own needs, makes you unable to grasp the argument made by that 'bewildering history lesson'.
(Hmmm, running out of colours if this continues)
Don't worry, this really is my last post to you, so colours shouldnt be an issue. Ive gone through the entertainment barrier now and I am reaching bored.
So, I will respond once more then leave you to the (inevitable) last word.
The history lesson was irrelevant. It had nothing to do with MMORPGs.
All the points you made off the back of it are irrelevant.
This entire excerise by you here has been irrelevant.
Anything you post to respond to this is irrelevent.
Thats all.
I am starting to think maybe English isnt your first language? If it isnt, then thats cool, and I apologise. It's just that you seem to have comprehension issues.
It is an easy step to check my profile, as I did with yours btw. As you played the 'native English incomprehension card' twice, please proofread and check your own posts first, before trying it out on other people...
I am not correcting your grammer or written English in general am I?
I am questioning your ability to ability to absorb and comprehend a point.
What you write here again proves that you continually miss the point being made.
You do have a habit of proving my points for me eh?
I am very flattered you looked at my profile. I admit I wasnt motivated enough to look at yours.
There is no comprehension issue here.
No, you just think there isnt.
It's somewhat embarrassing actually.
It is just that you are trying to force your own opinion on others using a few simple semantic issues here and there. This is a sign of weak argumentation as you are unable to see the general picture and have to resort to belittlement.
Eh?
lol
Belittlement?
I have answered all your points clearly and concisely.
Friend, and please say we CAN be friends, it was you who originally quoted me 'for a laugh' wasnt it?
Ah... but it's ok for you to belittle others right?
As soon as they come back at you, you run to the delusional moral high ground right?
Sad.
And I do blame this on the current crop of MMO players. But essentially they cannot help it though. They grew up with the games that are all about competition and missed those earlier games that were still about the adventure of the game (it is no coincidence that the whole genre of old style adventure games like Zork, Monkey island, Sam & Max, etc. has completely died out).
Erm... friend, they havent.
Point'n'Click adventures are still made, and Sam and Max are still selling...
Just because you have stopped looking, it dosent mean they stopped existing.
Who are you blaming now?
Ah yes, I concede to you this one. The financial success of adventure games is still huge these days. No wonder there are still countless numbers of these games produced every year. Maybe I shouldn't have used the term 'died out', I can see where it has confused you.
And btw, I don't think we'll ever be able to be friends.
Thank you, I accept your admission of being wrong.
But, actually, you said completely died out. This is a clear and definitive statement being presented as fact.
See, here is a great example of latching on to one word while ignoring the rest. So to help you out, here is my revised sentence:
Help me out?
lol
You meant to reinvent what you said in an effort to make your point somehow valid?
That one word was pivotal.
Stop squirming and struggling to take it back.
You made a false badly informed statement, and were pulled up on it.
just deal with it.
You see, you 'confuse' people when you make definitive statements that are incorrect. They tend to think you mean what you are typing. I guess thats their fault though, and not yours.
Never friends though? awww..... For real? :(
Now to those who are saying that because MM-ORPG stands for Massive Multiplayer you need to read again from which genre the current MMORPG evolved.
And read again how irrellevant that whole verbal gush was that you posted above is to discussing MMORPGs.
Oh, and then sod off?
Why should I sod off? Cannot take an argument? I also see that you conveniently glossed over the whole RP part of the post, guess that didn't fit in with your personal view after all...
And why should anyone else sod off, but you don't seem to have a problem telling them to...
Ah, talking about comprehension issues...
So... you didnt write....
"....group and otherwise just sod off...."
..?
What are you inplying that I don't understand about that rather nasty statement?
Seems clear to me.
Again seems that you clearly miss the point being made. Par for the course for you though it seems.
Cannot you take an argument?
My post was in direct response to yours after all, as is obvious right?
Hypocrite much?
And again you're glossing over the RP part, very interesting you know.
And a few last things, funny quotes:
Originally posted by vesavius
My, arnt you a rude little man?
MMORPGs were designed for co-op play.
Yes you can solo, but it should never be preferable to group.
As soon as you build a game that enforces solo play then you destroy what made these games special in the first.
Community.
/sigh... who am I kidding..? As if your ever gonna get it.... From your attitude of post here I doubt very much much that you are capable of social co-op play.
Funny how you think that 'Community' can only be achieved by forced grouping. And no, originally the genre was not designed for co-op play. That is like saying that FPS was originally designed for co-op play.
Read what I wrote again.
and again if you need to.
To help you, what I wrote means that a game that ENFORCES soloing, as the current generation does by removing group content, or at least marganalising it to the point where it is worthless, will never have a community worth spit.
You see, this is where I do not understand people.
Yes, your right, you blatantly don't understand people.
You guys are blubbering tears because you feel that the whole 'effort' of putting together a group should entitle you to some special treat.
No, we are making the point that we enjoy co-op social gameplay.
I really do't know how to paint this clearer for you.
You don't have to. But what is holding you back from enjoying your social gameplay? Other people soloing?
Yes.
When a whole player base solos because the game enforces soloing by unspoken default, that stops me getting groups.
You will never understand the point being made i think, so no matter.
As you clearly are not a fan of 'history lessons'
Actually, I am when they are from an informed source and relevant.
I'll keep it short and simple for you:
Thanks!
Do you group for the 'community feel' and the fun of grouping? Or do you group because you will then be able to get that special treat?
I group for the enjoyment of achieveing a shared goal with friends (both new and old). I group for chats, for laughs, to share the experience of exploring a new world.
Oh, and I also play MMORPGs to develop and imporve my character, which in your simplistic terms would those 'special treats' I guess.
So, both.
Again, what is holding you back from your envisioned experience?
Games that enforce soloing by unspoken default system design choices.
I have never called for enforced grouping.
I have only ever stated that enforced soloing in these games destroys community. Whether you take that as opinion or fact, I don't really care tbh.
Point me in the direction of those games that enforces soloing? (and please do not come with some obscure f2p garbage example)
AoC enforced soloing for 90% of it's content at launch.
You mean Tortage? Maybe you have never played the game, but it is certainly possible to group up, even for quite a bit in the 10-20 levels. Although most people who have only read about the game think otherwise though...
No, I mean 90% of it's content at launch.
Comprehension plz.
I have soloed when I have needed or wanted to in MMORPGs since 1999, and it should always be there as an option. I have stated this already in this thread. Read it again.
Good boy!! So you do know how to solo...
Yep! I am sooo proud!
If you havent got a point, pleae dont invent one by putting words in my mouth to suit whatever it is you are obviously so desperate to say.
There is nothing desperate in my previous post, unless you call a civil grown-up way of argumentation 'desperate'. Although I admit that I have lowered my standard considerably in this reply, much to my regret I must say.
Just calling it as I am reading it.
Was the only way to get 'face to face' with you unfortunately. Ah, how I love these little jibes on a saturday afternoon.
Friend, you called me out originally by quoting me for ' laugh', so don't try and reinvent history now and try to gain the moral high ground.
It dosent belong to you.
Ahh, you know what?
Have it if you need it so bad.
I am the point where I just think you are a silly teenager trying to be an adult.
I'm done.
Seeing as you think MMORPGs as a genre started with the MUDs, which is just plain silly, it's like saying that cars are the same as wagons
Gee, let me see: Four wheels, used for carrying cargo from point A to point B and powered by horsepower. Ah how wrong I have been!!!
hehe this is my favourite bit!
If you can't see why, I really havent the energy to point it out :)
By the way, what I will say, is that a car isnt actually powered by 'horsepower'... y'know? They don't actually have horses inside them... It's just a term to measure power borrowed from wagons... y'know?
Again here you go, not able to see the whole picture just to make it suit your own needs.
No, I made a point, which you obviously feel uncomfortable answering.
Oh well, shoulda have expected that from you.
What you do here is actually prove my point though, so thanks.
You see, cars have borrowed terms from wagons (horsepower in this case), the same way that MMORPGs borrowed from MUDs, but they...
Funny thing is, you prove my point, but use the wrong word. Now I could do the same as you did and dismiss your argument on the word 'borrowed' (should be derived), yet I'm able to see the whole picture.
lol
You are correcting grammer and word usuage here?
Petty and sad :(
Ahh no matter lol. Anyone who actually says what you said won't get it.
You mean anyone like you?
lol
This is getting now like the arguments I had with my sister when I was about 8...
No, I mean like you!
lol
and you obviously cannot comprehend basic English yet still attempt to ridicule what is said with some kind of false superiority complex, forgive me if I just leave you now and don't bother replying to you anymore.
Ah yes, the obligatory mudslinging... Thanks for the laughs 'friend'...
A pleasure :)
It's so fun talking to you, I can't help but reply, so I take that back! :)
Well, it is never a good sign to see someone come back on a promise, no matter how many smilies you put behind it.
Sorry Dad! I didnt know you posted here!
