Originally posted by namelessbob

If they don't give people shiny epics people won't pvp. WoW has become a constant grind for epics and even in a fun event is interjected in to the mix it will have no play due to the fact that it yields no epics for people to swing around town. They have destroyed their own buisness model.

This isn't true.  Blizzard is adding a ton of content (achievements for one) that have nothing to do with getting epics.  If a player chooses to grind for epics, that is on them.

 The new pvp zone will just turn into just another battle ground.   What real impact does it have on the entire game?  You get hks, badges ad then you sell those for gear.  

If that gear is better then bgs/equal and takes the same/less time people will just be doing their "world pvp" to get their epcis and then never return.  Untill they need to farm/grind the next set of gear. 

The videos on it look horrible.  The tanks and jets look sloppy, and why would you want to be able to wtf squash someone with a tank in a game that revolves around your characters skills/abilities/gear killing others.

Burning people and having things to do to help defend your keep is one thing, but to have a tank just around and basically be the new uber wtf pwn hax item in the game is pretty boring for an item centric game.

Why work for anything when you can get into a tank/jet and wtfbbq pwn people in whites in this fantastical world pvp?

 Even if the rewards are decent anything in arena will make them useless, in turn making the whole area useless like lolsand or Halaa. Arenas have ruined any chance of this game having decent world PVP. I'll give it a good month or two of people playing it then it'll flop just like all the other world PVP stuff.

 Isn't it on a timer like the spirit towers anyways? Like open 45 minutes and closed for 6 hours? yeah that'll be some excitement there.

  PASS.

Originally posted by Cursedsei

Yep, WoW is a complete Gear-grind game. You do quests to get greens, and use those greens to get dungeon greens, then blues, then purples. Rinse and repeat with each expansion.

I may like WoW, I may play it, but I know the game is damn well flawed in more than one respect. The worst is the gear dependency that runs rampant throughout it. Skill is only a small portion nowadays in it, all it'll do is help ya last a few seconds longer :P

I have not been playing wow for ages like some, but what you say pretty much echoes my feelings about it.

Coming from EQ1 and a few prior games, I am continually surprised by the total lack of group skills in WOW, like high level tanks that can't even hold aggro.

I just can't seem to take WOW seriously, it's fun, but it's also a lot of fluff and repitition with little real challenge.

Originally posted by Azrile

This isn't true.  Blizzard is adding a ton of content (achievements for one) that have nothing to do with getting epics.  If a player chooses to grind for epics, that is on them.

And tell me what exactly can you do with those achievements that is even remotely useful?

Originally posted by Azrile

 

 Blizzard has already stated they learned from BC open world pvp and not having a reason for players to go back to pvp areas.

I remember when they said they learned from Pre BC pvp (silithus *sandlol*, EPL towers) and yet they made the exact same blunders in TBC.

It's like the CM's saying things that they are given to say by the developer's, who then change agendas and outlooks completely but do not update the CM's with new things to tell us.  When you finally get a chance to listen to a dev speaking on his own accord about what they're doing...it's so far ahead of where the game is at any given moment, then when it's finally caught up...everything has changed and everyone is left going "wtf?? but you said...where is this thing....how come you said....", then you don't hear from the devs again for months, at which point, they've totally moved on from the issue and are completely out of touch and on to developing some new raid content or expansion content.

So all that being said, take what they say they've learned with a grain of salt.  It's not the first time they've used that line and shown us that no, they didn't learn a thing.

All this means is that it's better to find out for yourself instead of relying on the words of blizz which are vague at best and unreliable at worst.   If lake WG is fun and actually gets people pvping out in the world again without fizzling that will be great and I'm all for it.  Whether or not they can give people incentive to continue going there for it remains to be see.  And lets face facts here, the vast majority of people will not participate in content in WoW with any real frequency if there are better rewards for time invested elsewhere to be had in the current incarnation of wow.

In the old days people didn't need incentive to world pvp, TM vs SS was a free for all that just spontaneously developed and was pretty wild.  However, at the time, there wasn't much else to do, compared to how it is now where there are so many grinds to partake in to upgrade your gear every season etc...back then not so much at all.

They've got quite a balancing act to work out in keeping the zone worthwhile as well as balanced it will be a miracle if they pull off balance with wintergrasp initially, I'm expecting month after month of tweaking, nerfing, retuning, changing npc's around...and that's if they continue to even give a damn about it.  If the player's don't, they will not either.

 A few months from now we'll get to see firsthand if they live up to their claims of learning from the past and actually doing something about it that isn't twice as broken as the thing they're trying to fix.  I'll be surprised (pleasantly) if they do, and like many will not be shocked if it's just a ghost town that people deserted as soon as outlevelling it.

Originally posted by onlinenow25

 The new pvp zone will just turn into just another battle ground.   What real impact does it have on the entire game?  You get hks, badges ad then you sell those for gear.  

If that gear is better then bgs/equal and takes the same/less time people will just be doing their "world pvp" to get their epcis and then never return.  Untill they need to farm/grind the next set of gear. 

And ...it works.

Every night there are about 120 to 150 BG's ongoing  from the available BG's, multiply this with the dozens of Battlegroups and it shows it works. (just the lvl 70 ones btw). ... from 07.00PM to midnight.
Add the new achievements systems and they can motivate just about everyone.

3 secrets with LW (that changes it all):

- Only Hi end zone (no need to go to lower levels just to PvP) and concentrated, auto PvP always -on
- mobile siege engines .... meaning no battle will ever be the same
- new achievements system (perfect copy of what War wanted to do to motivate)

Most important factor: is the concentration element. It will be busy all the time like all the BG's.

Originally posted by Laiina

And tell me what exactly can you do with those achievements that is even remotely useful?

the Achievements are not useful but they will add "color" to your character

I like WOW but not a huge fan and I am looking forward to Achievements - even if its just fluff

Originally posted by Laiina

Originally posted by Azrile

This isn't true.  Blizzard is adding a ton of content (achievements for one) that have nothing to do with getting epics.  If a player chooses to grind for epics, that is on them.

 

And tell me what exactly can you do with those achievements that is even remotely useful?

So what exactly is your point?

If Blizzard adds a useful reward, you say that game is a gear grind and complain
if Blizzard adds things that are just fun without gear rewards you complain about that

The rewards for achievements will be cosmetic things.. probably titles, non-combat pets, clothing etc.

The rewards for Lake Wintergrasp will be both faction based and personal based.   The player will personally get upgrade items and titles, but the players faction will get  buffs that affect everyone in all the new zones.  They will get access to new items and recipes.

There are people who just have Blizzard because they are so successful.   No matter how popular or fun the game is, there are people who will just envy them and say nothing they do is good enough.

Originally posted by Azrile

So what exactly is your point?

If Blizzard adds a useful reward, you say that game is a gear grind and complain
if Blizzard adds things that are just fun without gear rewards you complain about that

The rewards for achievements will be cosmetic things.. probably titles, non-combat pets, clothing etc.

The rewards for Lake Wintergrasp will be both faction based and personal based.   The player will personally get upgrade items and titles, but the players faction will get  buffs that affect everyone in all the new zones.  They will get access to new items and recipes.

There are people who just have Blizzard because they are so successful.   No matter how popular or fun the game is, there are people who will just envy them and say nothing they do is good enough.

And there are some of us that have played games besides WOW and thus have something to compare what Blizzard is doing to what other companies are doing. Comparing what Blizzard does with what their competition has/is doing is not "envy" or "hate". Not that I recall anyone here saying anything about "hating blizzard" or anything similar.

And making the Achievements fluff a major selling point is not stacking up all that well so far. How many people really care about titles, especially when there are so many that they lose their meaning?

Originally posted by Laiina

Originally posted by Azrile

So what exactly is your point?

If Blizzard adds a useful reward, you say that game is a gear grind and complain
if Blizzard adds things that are just fun without gear rewards you complain about that

The rewards for achievements will be cosmetic things.. probably titles, non-combat pets, clothing etc.

The rewards for Lake Wintergrasp will be both faction based and personal based.   The player will personally get upgrade items and titles, but the players faction will get  buffs that affect everyone in all the new zones.  They will get access to new items and recipes.

There are people who just have Blizzard because they are so successful.   No matter how popular or fun the game is, there are people who will just envy them and say nothing they do is good enough.

 

And there are some of us that have played games besides WOW and thus have something to compare what Blizzard is doing to what other companies are doing. Comparing what Blizzard does with what their competition has/is doing is not "envy" or "hate". Not that I recall anyone here saying anything about "hating blizzard" or anything similar.

And making the Achievements fluff a major selling point is not stacking up all that well so far. How many people really care about titles, especially when there are so many that they lose their meaning?

Again someone who didn't play Wow since ages.
 

There are only 6 titles active at the moment in Wow. 2 PVE titles, 3 arena titles and one BG title (named differently for hordes and alliance). The old PvP system isn't active anymore.

So that's 6 active titiles of which some are very hard to come by (top arena = only 1 per Battlegroup (cluster of a dozen or more servers - meaning a hundred thousand possible players and only the best one gets it.)

So .... people are indeed playing for other reasons than gear.

Odd isn't it, if you want to discuss a game you really don't know anymore.

:)))

WoTLK will not succeed because blizzard created ONE zone that is PvP orientated. WAR from the zones in tier 1 all the way to tier 4 are PvP zones. To compare the two when it comes to PvP is pretty f'n retarded.

WoTL