Justin Webb: That's What She Said
MMORPG.com columnist Justin Webb writes this week's article on difficulty in games, looking back at a past where games were just... harder.
Column By Justin Webb on February 09, 2010
This week I have mostly been playing Demon’s Souls. In addition to its mischievously placed apostrophe, it’s also astonishingly hard.
Its learning curve is more like a learning crevasse, where every mistake is rewarded by being flung flailing into the abyss. Some of the design decisions in the first level are astonishing:
advertisement - You can’t exit the level without beating it.
- Every time you die, you must start the level again… and all the monsters respawn.
- Many monsters can kill you in one hit if they get the drop on you.
- Every time you die, you drop all your souls – the game’s xp and currency. If you die again without picking up those souls, they are gone for good.
- You start out in human form. If you die, you turn into a spirit with reduced stats and half as many hit points. To resurrect, you must finish the level.
- It can take a good 15 minutes to fight your way back to your dropped souls.
- There is a “go left/go right” decision halfway through the first level, where going right takes you to a monster that is unkillable.
- After finishing the first level, to be able to level up, you must talk to an NPC who is hidden so well that you will want to tear your face off.
- It has a PvP mode where other players can “break into” your game and hunt you down and kill you.
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While, normally, playing a game that punches me in the face repeatedly every couple of minutes would seem like a fruitless exercise in masochism, playing Demon’s Souls is surprisingly actually a lot of fun. I’ve come away from the experience bloodied and humbled, but I’ve loved it. And I’m not sure exactly why.
Maybe it’s because it’s such a cruel mistress and that it reminds me nostalgically of my formative gaming years.
As time has gone by, video games have become easier and easier. In the early days of micro-computing, video games were routinely extremely difficult, almost impossibly so. I remember playing Jet Set Willy on my Spectrum as an impressionable spotty teenager and getting absolutely nowhere near to finishing it. None of my friends got close either. It was just too damn difficult. However, “everyone” was playing it and loving it.
Back then, completing a game was a BIG deal.
Nowadays, it’s rare indeed if a game’s single-player content isn’t a total cake walk. (What is a cake walk anyway, and why are they “easy”?) Games now are about maximizing “accessibility” instead of creating meaningful challenges. They are content tunnels. And that’s OK. It’s where games have evolved to. However, it’s reassuring to know that every now and again a Ninja Gaiden or a Demon’s Souls will come along, like a fiercely-swung cricket bat to the teeth, and remind us of all the insanity we used to endure and adore.
MMOs too have not been immune to this trend. The first MUD I really invested any time in was Terris (originally on AOL). It was quite forgiving compared to the other popular MUD variants, but still had brutal features that you wouldn’t be able to get away with today. In addition to having to contend with human sysops killing you whenever they drunkenly felt like it, when I first started playing, you lost XP when you died, and you died a lot. However, I loved it, and Terris cemented my love of the MMORPG. Back then, MUDs had features that really punished players. But it was expected. Video games were supposed to be hard, so why should MUDs be any different, right?
When Everquest came along in the summer of ‘99, it took the design sensibilities of DikuMUD and added a novel third graphical dimension. It was massively popular and extremely successful. However, I remember bouncing off Everquest really hard. I played it first during the beta, then again at launch, and tried again for a third time a few years later. What really repelled me was that I couldn’t play it the way I wanted to (without having to group), and it was really, really hard (if you didn’t group). You see, since my early Jet Set Willy days, I had very gradually become spoiled into expecting that I wouldn’t get curb-stomped every time I made a mistake. Everquest just seemed to go out of its way to make me miserable… and to waste my time if I screwed up, which is inexcusable in an MMO.
Then WoW came out … and, with it, MMO easy mode, marking the end of dicking around your player base for no good reason and expecting to make any money. It soon became obvious that Blizzard had made a big list of every feature in Everquest that pissed people off, and replaced them all with more forgiving versions. And that’s one of the reasons why, in November 2004, WoW demolished EQ2.
While we can argue the merits of the perceived simplicity of WoW versus Everquest, what cannot be contended is the fact that since the mid-nineties, the general MMO landscape has become easier and easier to navigate … less pointy and more “accessible”. There’s that word again. As an example of a recent AAA MMO release, Star Trek Online is phenomenally easy, to the point that it’s actually quite difficult to die while playing, at least during the first 11 levels that I played.
Of course though, there is room for niche product. EVE Online is a great example of a successful game that hasn’t pandered to the easy trend. And Conan appears to be making a comparative comeback too. I’m sure WoW raids are very challenging too, but that’s endgame, and not representative of the game’s overall difficulty experience.
So where does that leave us? Are we just stuck with easy MMOs now? Can we expect to see any face-meltingly difficult MMOs any time soon? Or should we leave those painful experiences back in 1995 where they belong? Should MMOs make a stand and revert back to their back-breakingly difficult roots, or should insanely hard MMOs be jettisoned into space along with their beard-stroking aficionados?
Let me know what you think.
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Justin's column will appear every Tuesday here at MMORPG.com.
Easy mmos or hard mmos? We can just have both, and thankfully, we do. From EVE to WoW, winking an eye at darkfall. The more easy most mmos get, the more pissed off some indie developer is gonna get and make some stupid hard mmo.
*raises glass to darwin*
Wow. From what I've read of your description of the game, you are a masochist. To each his own, but there's no chance I'd set a virtual foot in that game ever. For me to enjoy a game, all my characters have to slowly, steadily, make progress or improve in some way. They may hit walls, but that progress should never be backwards. But, whatever floats your boat.
BTW, I looked this up for you:
One kind of contest popular in the African-American community in the 19th century was the "cakewalk," in which couples competed strolling arm in arm, with the prize, a cake, being awarded to the most graceful and stylish team.
Since "cakewalking" demanded both skill and grace, victory in the contest was rarely a "cakewalk" in our modern "easy" sense. That modern use of "cakewalk" in the came from the boxing ring, where a very easy victory over an outclassed opponent was likened to a refined "cakewalk" compared to the ordinarily prolonged and brutal nature of the matches. By 1877, "cakewalk" had graduated from the boxing ring and acquired its general meaning of "an effortless victory."
Nowadays, if it is too hard in a MMO then it's because it's a F2P game, and it certainly features item shop stuff to reduce that difficulty.
Or it is the end of the end-game in a P2P theme-park game, the last 1% of content.
Sandboxes are kind of different as there is no ultimate end-game and the challenge rather comes in the form of different things to do and dangers, it's not about combat but about taking a role in this virtual world.
Maybe that's the following mentalities were developed, they are of course, my opinion:
1- In the F2P game, the player will try to go as far as he can without spending a single cent, enduring the insane grinding or getting owned in PvP, losing his gear in upgrading systems and lacking the delicious xp/attribute modifiers. It's his way of recreating the challenge, and he still finds the game fun... but that's subjective and pointless, the guy next to you spent money, and guess what, he's far superior to you and playing half of the time you play.
2- In the P2P game, the player will rush through content to reach this legendary hard end-game, not reading quests, simply doing what the quest helper says, skipping content if possible, etc. He just wants to get to the point the game gets hard, and damn he will be so disappointed and angry if he finds more grind instead of a challenge at the end of the tunnel. It's called grind because it's so easy it is just a matter of time. Oh, and if the rewards are not worth the insane challenge, you also got an angry player. You can't expect to make an insanely challenging end-game and throw ridiculous rewards in.
I have to admit, when I first played Demon's Souls, I eventually went into a nerdrage and put the game down. I had forgotten what it was like to play a truly hard game. After a while, I picked it back up with the mentality of "I know I'm going to die" and got over that hump. After a few hours of immersion and toil, I realized I loved the game.
After playing WoW for now 5+ years, I didn't expect any game to challenge me like Demon's Souls did. I'm glad for the experience, and it gets me wondering on how to translate "difficulty" into an MMO without equating it to group size. So, instead, why don't we have content driven toward the 2-3 person group range? A skilled player could take on the content, sure, but with great difficulty (and bragging rights). I think having one or two friends would give leeway for small team-oriented puzzle solving or unique boss encounters without the need to get 10 or 25 people together.
Demon's Souls is one of the best games ever made. I would love if they made an MMO based off of it.
It is true EQ was very demanding and after a certain level depending on class you had to have a group and that was not always easy as it was a certain make up of classes to do things. Healers, tank , enchanter, first left little room for much else. Then cc changes made the enchanter less needed. After five years of play and then trying WoW was not hard to change games.
In the beginning some encounters for Wow required a group and of course as with all games being in a guild and raiding to obtain the better gear. Now even the casual player can get good gear without being in a guild. LFG has made it possible not to struggle finding groups, making it possible to get the badges needed to get the gear.
Yes it is easy now compared to the beginning. Hopefully they won't make it so easy that players that like a bit of challenge will loose interest. We shall see.
I was thinking it is a matter of audience (age), but then again I remember myself at the age of 14-15 when I was literarly living in front of a monitor playing UO(pre trammel), which was in fact an unforgiving game at that time.
Also most of the sega and NES games were hard as hell... and I loved every and each one of them.
I played WoW out of lore sake when it came out (I loved the storyline of WC3), but the game overall is too easy.
You mentioned STO, which I played for 2 days just to get my cruiser class ship and make sure the game will be like this till end game(if there is one). All I have to say about STO is it is easy to an extent of retardation.
Then I thought "It must be the player type, ie hardcore/softcore". But I was wrong again, since I'm playing darkfall, playing very casualy and still enjoying it because it is HARD.
Bottom line is I guess its just what kind of person you are...
The only games I really liked, were the ones which put me up to a challenge: UO, EVE, DF and hopefully Earthrise soon :)
This is interesting. What I have found after playing games all these years and talking to different people and their take on gaming. Some people crave challenge in games more than anything else. Others crave tasklists. While others crave doing a little bit of everything, or exploring, or just plain PVP madness.
My point is, that while WoW may be easy to all you who look for a challenge, as is evident if you truly like to play a game like Demon's Souls, but for others it isn't as easy as you make it sound.
I fall into the little bit of everything/explorer example and I had tough times at points in WoW and most games. I overcame most of them but not all. But guess what? I could care less about "beating" those things as for me gaming is about the other stuff.
I won't EVER play a game like Demon's Souls because my idea of fun is nowhere to found in that game.
So, I hope, that everyone who writes an article like yours, at least takes into consideration everyone's different playstyles. Oh, and stop bashing WoW because YOU think it is too easy. If anything, bash WoW for not growing the game horizontally and adding depth.
Good article.
I believe you mentioned somewhere on the Darkfall forums that you might be considering trying that. We have a very similiar lineage. I started in MUD's as well, then went to UO, DAoC, and then WoW. We like a challange, even if it means pulling your hair out on occasion (Which is fine.. gonna be bald one day anyway.. THANKS DAD!).
Darkfall really is one of those experiences. You die. A lot. You get ganked and beaten for no reason. A lot.
But the hidden secret behind all the constant death, losing everything, and smack-talking idiots that are the most vocal minority in any MMO community (And make no mistake, they ARE the minority - Plenty of good people, even if they are also killing you since that's one of the fun activities in the game) is that with every step you take towards your goal, every time you work your way through some seemingly unpleasant challenge or mechanic, there is sense of accomplishment in everything you do that you just don't get when you face a game that's "Easy".
For those who don't understand this and play WoW (Playing the odds, here), put it this way: Do you think you would feel a greater sense of accomplishment when you beat Van Clef, or when you beat Arthas? Now think about why that is.
For the last year or so that Darkfall has actually been available, I've let my opinion of that community dissuade me from trying a game that seemed to have everything I love about MMO's. Now I understand that the game has improved a lot since it was released, so from that perspective, it might be a good thing that I'm only just joining.
But I'm playing, I'm solo, and it's a challange around every corner that I'm enjoying thoroughly. I hope you give it a shot.
elocke: I don't think I bashed WoW at all in that article. In fact, I think I was probably a bit harsh on EQ (1 and 2). I have a lot of respect for the decisions Blizzard made during development of WoW. The point I did want to make is that WoW is definitely "easier" than most of its precedents ... and that it being easier is part of a slow 20-year trend.
However, the main reason I wanted to reply to your comment is that your animated banner is awesome. Thumbs up!
I know i'm going to get fillet for this but....
Star Trek Online is pretty hard, i mean the first 10 levels have you flying around in a dinky, crappy Miranda class and then you have to BUY a better ship AND do a quest to get something decent...better hope you didn't spend your 'gold' on upgrades early...
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/1321-Demons-Souls
EPIC
Demons Souls was an amazing game, and a good reminder of why challenging games are needed in all genres. The greater the challenge, that greater the satisfaction from completing them.
I have to admit that I was pleasantly surprised when, in Dragon Age, I was picked up by a large troll creature and pounded within seconds.
At first I hated that there was an "I win" button for the AI but after playing the game and learning more about it I found out how I could mitigate that sort of thing.
I suppose for me I prefer things harder (the "old" old forest in LOTRO for example) but I also tend to prefer the chance to at least overcome or recognize the danger by quickly looking at the scenario before me.
Demons's Souls might be a tad to annoying for my preference but it would be nice if mmo's had more danger. Like in Lineage 2 where, in the starter dark elf area, there was a quest mob that was a monster tree that required a full party to even have the chance to take down. This thing had a wide aggro range. Same in the seap of spores where Orfen would chase you right up to the gates so she could stomp you.
Some of the most fun I've ever had was making sure I knew where orfen was so I didn't get stomped. Since then, NC has made those areas easier, less fog in the swamp where the tree is and now I don't even think it aggros anymore. Oren doens't travel around as much and won't chase you to the gates.
THIS is where the devs have gone wrong.
We do need more challenge. However, for some that challenge will require a stiff death penalty and for others that death penalty will have to be a bit less.
Still, it needs to be said that games like Demons's souls need to be made as clearly there are people who enjoy them.
While that sounds right...it's not true for everyone. To be entirely honest....I don't always feel like playing a game that requires WORK when I've worked all day. Sometimes I just want to chill. Now that may mean playing casual games, or...it may mean I want the "escape factor" of an RPG style game (MMO or single player). It really depends on the mood I'm in. And that's why I love that games come in a wide array of "flavors." "Beating" an extremely challenging game, for me, isn't always that satisfying. As a matter of fact, I've come away from doing that more than a few times, just feeling relieved that it's OVER.
I do however agree with you that we need to have challenging games in all genres, but we need varying degrees OF challenge. Personally, I think this is best accomplished by having difficulty settings (in single player games). Dragon Age: Origins is a great example of that, I think. If you want, what would feel to me like absolute masochism, you can set the game on nightmare mode and have at it. On the other hand, if you really just want to experience the story, without having to pull every hair out of your head, there's a normal mode, or even easy, for those that prefer it.
That might work but what about the unskilled solo player? They would not be able to solo the content and then you'd be back to the same resolution... nurfing the content for "accessability". Would it not make more sense to build tougher zones that allow for an alternative route to end-game? These could be added over time, they would not have to be introduced at launch, although, a couple at launch would allow the dev team to determine the appetite of their audence for harder content let them determine what development resources to aside for new content.
This approach would allow for people looking for harder content to be sated while still allowing more casual gamers to by-pass it if they don't have the skill or time to complete it. Bonuses for completion could range from XP bonuses (either like "resting" bonuses or a lump sum completion bonus) to gear valuable specifically for leveling but would becomes redundant at end-game.
Just a thought....
Sovrath, I always respect your posts. That said, I must disagree with what you've stated here, at least to a degree.
Please do not include me in your "we". I, for one, do not think games are too easy. In fact, I'm confused by people's definition of easy (or hard). Let me explain: I've seen people post in forums about how it took them 10 or 20 tries to down a particular end-boss, but eventually they figured out how to do it. And now, they call that easy. For me, easy means NEVER dying. I mean never, ever.
I often liken my games to the literature I read. In those books, it is very rare that the hero dies, at least not until the very end. That is the game I want to play. And I don't mean hardcore permadeath modes where you have to be cautious to the extreme. But rather a game where I feel like a powerful hero all the time. Where mere minions, even in groups of two or three, do not provide the tiniest hint of a threat. I am a hero! End bosses would be roughly equal to my skill and no more.
I hate dying in games. HAAAATE it. It's not the penalty, or the pointlessly annoying walk back to my corpse. I am the hero of the story! I shouldn't die, at least, not unless it's in some spectacularly selfless act of heroism.
I'm being a bit extreme here but I think you get my point. I often scratch my head at how other players seem to actually enjoy defeat.
Now, this is not to say I feel all games should be like I described, not at all. There does need to be games for all types of players, but I can't agree with "This is where devs have gone wrong" beyond that.
BTW, I enjoyed Dragon Age. So much so that I played it through completely three times. But after the first run I set it to easy. Partially for reasons I stated above, and partly because after a while, I found the harder setting to be more of a slog. After the first death, succeeding deaths are meaningless. It just means a restart from last save and try again. And again. And as many times as you need until you get past that fight to the next. I would prefer to see far fewer fights but have more of them mean something.
I think im one of the few who dislikes Dragon Age. I disliked how the story was flat, how combat was dull (Including killsyncs do not make it epic) and how OP the mage class was. Take a look at Baldurs Gate II, an old game with epic combat. It was also not full blown cheese fantasy like Dragon Age. The romance scenes were so cringe worthy in Dragon Age I almost quit the game there and then.
Ofc the game had its merits, great back history and musical score.
But back to the topic! Current games, excluding Demons Souls, have become 'hold the gamers hand' and 'kiss the poor sore spot if hurt' kinda gaming. But look at the defenition of hard gaming. To increase the difficulty to epic does not make the game 'hard' but gives the computer an unfair advantage. Hard for me is skill based, platforming, tactics, timing on certain events. Its down to YOU to pass the area, kill the boss, jump that timed jump. And if you fail, YOU DIE! You re-step to the check point which is FAR back.
Death is now a joke for games. Spirit walk to your corpse :O Such a harsh life. I wish games would take EVEs approach to death.
Designing games with mechanics that drive away players is easy.
Designing games with mechanics that attract players and keep them playing is hard. Look at the number of failed games vs. successes in any genre.
MMORPG developers are not taking the easy way out making their games more accessible. They are taking the more difficult route developing approchable systems that take far more thought, testing and work. Punishing game mechanics are simply lazy excuses that MMORPG developers have used the same way comedy shows throw in fart jokes rather actually thinking up something clever.
That's not to say there isn't an audience for fart jokes. But the MMORPG genre is not going to evolve and do anything worthwhile and innovative if it gets sidetracked looking back at 'the good old days'.
Oh I respect that. When I say "we" it's just a coloquialism aimed more toward players who are on the side of desiring harder games and not so much as "everyone/we".
I can easily see your point and even agree. Heck, in Dragon Age I would sometimes put the game on easy because harder modes just halted the flow of everything. Sometimes it's the story that matters more than whether or not you get through the encounter.
I suppose a better way to illustrate what I want to say is that recently in Vanguard I went down into a spider den. Unlike wow or lotro I realized that I could very well die if I wasn't careful. Oh sure, one can die in wow and lotro but I have found that I die way less. If I made one wrong pull or went a bit too far then there was going to be a consequence that I might not be able to escape from. I found this thrilling to a point.
Now, this is not to say that I want to die nor do I require hard death penalties. For me the failure of dying resonates far more than any death penalty can.
But I found that there was a bit more investment on my part.
But I'm also a huge believer in the idea (and fact) that not everyone is built the same way. Some love that heart pumping, adrenaline rush and require it. Me? Not so much. That's actually something I don't find desirable. But I do like to feel that I'm in a dangerous area and that I need to be in the moment or else there will be consequences.
Personally I don't think ALL games should be hard. And I support to a certain degree that games allow part time players or casual players a chance to play without being hard core.
I would just like to see a game for me that had a theme I could identify with and that made me a bit more cautious.
To end, I just used Dragon Age because it was one of the first solo player games I've played in a long time and I had forgotten what it was like to fail and have to reload in order to succeed in a spot. Not to advertise it or set it up as a poster boy for a hard game. I include this because I don't want forum goers to think I'm advertising this game. One could very well just insert another game of their choice that they found challenging.
I've heard about DS... No way in hell am I going to waste my time(and spike my blood pressure) with such a sadistic game. I'm in this hobby for entertainment and relaxation. There is a difference between a challenging game, and one that is more the Dev's playing sadistic head games with the player. From the sounds of it, its much like a game called The Void. Which is also one sadistic head game after another.
Sovrath, I always respect your posts. That said, I must disagree with what you've stated here, at least to a degree.
Please do not include me in your "we". I, for one, do not think games are too easy. In fact, I'm confused by people's definition of easy (or hard). Let me explain: I've seen people post in forums about how it took them 10 or 20 tries to down a particular end-boss, but eventually they figured out how to do it. And now, they call that easy. For me, easy means NEVER dying. I mean never, ever.
I often liken my games to the literature I read. In those books, it is very rare that the hero dies, at least not until the very end. That is the game I want to play. And I don't mean hardcore permadeath modes where you have to be cautious to the extreme. But rather a game where I feel like a powerful hero all the time. Where mere minions, even in groups of two or three, do not provide the tiniest hint of a threat. I am a hero! End bosses would be roughly equal to my skill and no more.
I hate dying in games. HAAAATE it. It's not the penalty, or the pointlessly annoying walk back to my corpse. I am the hero of the story! I shouldn't die, at least, not unless it's in some spectacularly selfless act of heroism.
I'm being a bit extreme here but I think you get my point. I often scratch my head at how other players seem to actually enjoy defeat.
Now, this is not to say I feel all games should be like I described, not at all. There does need to be games for all types of players, but I can't agree with "This is where devs have gone wrong" beyond that.
BTW, I enjoyed Dragon Age. So much so that I played it through completely three times. But after the first run I set it to easy. Partially for reasons I stated above, and partly because after a while, I found the harder setting to be more of a slog. After the first death, succeeding deaths are meaningless. It just means a restart from last save and try again. And again. And as many times as you need until you get past that fight to the next. I would prefer to see far fewer fights but have more of them mean something.
I think that the heroes in those books arn't heroes because the enemies are weak,but because they are good at what they do. Now,superheroes are different. Anyways, I think that some games should stick to this,like Demon Souls(Though,havn't played it,but have read up on it. Can't wait to try) if your not good enough to be the hero,then you won't feel like the hero. At least,thats how I see it.
I just want to mention Civilization 4 as perfect example where hard difficulty doesnt stop players from taking the challenge again and again. The game has great replayability and after you get your butt kicked you think to yourself, ok one more try, even when there is late night.
Game can be superhard when designed well. I guess DS is such a game if people dont ragequit.
I enjoyed The Immortal, I hated Battletoads. Both games very unforgiving in screwing up... so why like one over the other? *shrugs* Maybe someone else can explain it better.
If done right, major difficulty can be enjoyable and fun, rather than tedious and unrewarding...
Wow's endgame IS EQ1.
The minute you hit level 80, you're pretty much done doing solo content, and with no experience bar you are now only chasing better gear or farming older content for gold. You are forced to group with 4 others for "heroics" (which are no longer anywhere near heroic in difficulty, but still not solo-able). If you're not a tank or healer, this means standing around for 15-30 minutes while queued in the looking for a group tool before every dungeon. It's like waiting in line at a very crowded ski lift. Whee.
Once you're fully kitted out in heroic and emblem gear, you can only advance (i.e. get better gear) by doing raids which require 10-25 players. Many raids won't take you unless you can show them you've completed the content before. Many raids won't take you unless your level of gear is beyond what's available from the content being raided.
AoC is hard? sorry... I like the game, but the only really challenging part in it is the "death group" in Cradle of Decay, and i think even that got "fixed" later on..
Dude I totally have to agree with you. All of the civilization games did their best to absolutly screw you, even to the point of cheating to make it harder in the earlier versions. I have been playing since Civilization, and still have not beaten the various versions of the title more than a few times on the harder difficulty levels. But thats what makes it so awesome. It's seeing how good you did "that time" vs. every other time. When you finally crush your enemies, or even just some of them, it is immensly rewarding. You can play it in Puss mode too, but where is the fun in that? You just get all the tech and are so far ahead of the other countries its pointless.
To continue my rant, I always felt that game "cheats" were just about the lamest thing someone could use. Cheats, and easy mode for that matter literally allow the player to bypass the whole point of the game. I play all FPS games in hard mode and all RPG's in hard mode. It takes a bit longer to get through them but when you do the experience is always that much more memorable.
Applying this rant to MMORPG's though is a little tougher. Designers want most theme park MMO's (that I have seen) to be easy to slightly moderately easy because it makes them more fast paced, and being more fast paced keeps the attention of the player and their monthly subscriptions rolling in.
the main issue i find with modern mmo's is that in their efforts to make the game "easy and accessible" the immersion goes by the board.
i agree as some have pointed out however that overly or constantly penalising players or nerfing their toons as a result of their actions is not ideal; but not offering the player a sense of risk to their actions or decisions is equally damaging in terms of playing experience.
Dude I totally have to agree with you. All of the civilization games did their best to absolutly screw you, even to the point of cheating to make it harder in the earlier versions. I have been playing since Civilization, and still have not beaten it more than a few times on the harder difficulty levels. But thats what makes it so awesome. It's seeing how good you did "that time" vs. every other time. When you finally crush your enemies, or even just some of them, it is immensly rewarding. You can play is in Puss mode too, but where is the fun in that? You just get all the tech and are so far ahead of the other countries its pointless.
To continue my rant, I always felt that game "cheats" were just about the lamest thing someone could use to literally bypass the whole point of the game. I play all FPS games in hard mode and all RPG's in hard mode. It takes a bit longer to get through them but when you do the experience is always that much more memorable.
I found Civillization:Revolution pretty easy. Maybe it was just that one? But I do agree with the part of how awesome you did 'that one time' against' what you can do now.
Also play all my FPSs on the hardest mode. CoD:4 hardest one in along time. Going through that without dieing was nearly impossible,lol.
I don't think I could agree with you more on this column. In he past several years MMOs have gotten easier. The simple reason for this is the easier it is the more people will play it, the more people that play it, the more of a bottom line you have, and in the end of the day you and your investors are overwhelmingly happy, which I'm sure everybody on this tread no doubt gets.
I hope that in the future we see some more difficult games like EvE, because they are the only reason that I play, challenges that make me feel great.
Darkfall is very hard. But your right, overall MMO's have become easier and easier.
Thanks for the article.
I learned:
- I will NEVER play Demon Souls, as I do not enjoy getting kicked in the enthusiasm as a form of entertainment.
- You are a person completely different from me. When I spend $40-$60 on a game, I expect to be able to play the entirety of the content I paid for. Just because for me that meas setting the difficulty at 'Normal' to 'Easy' does not take awy fromt eh fun for me.
When I got my first chess program on my Commodore 64, I was only able o beat the first two levels of difficulty...so what. I'm glad there are some eople who like playing the most punishing games, the game industry needs the diversity of all the varous types, genres, and difficulties of games to remain vital and to evolve to the futur.
Please keep telling us which games scratch your masochistic itch, so I can avod them like a plague.
In Demon's Souls you and your character slowly progress and improve in many ways every minute you play.
But the way the game works make you feel much more rewarded it in a way you will probably never feel in any other game.
Even when you lost souls you learn something, your progress in Demon's Souls is never backwards.
I disagree.
The way multiplayer works in Demon's Souls is original and unique and the way the game is "saved" every second make the game somehow persistent for the player. If they made it into a traditional MMO, a lot of the special details of Demon's Souls will be lost.
But a new MMO with similar atmosphere and combat would be very interesting.
I am not even sure they should create a second Demon's Souls. I don't think it would be easy to create such masterpiece two times in a roll...
While I understand the fondness toward "ye old games of yore" (trust me, I really do...I'm old, and played a lot of those old games), I've come to the conclusion that there is plenty of death, struggle, and misery in REAL life. Myself, (and I know I'm not alone in this) I would prefer LESS pain and misery in gaming. To me, it's not FUN to have to repeat something over and over and over and over to succeed. That is just way too fucking much like real life. Have I always felt this about games? NO. This opinion has actually changed with age.
Yes, in real life, every failure teaches you something, hopefully, that will bring you closer to success in the future. But seriously now...I don't want to "learn life lessons," necessarily, from games. I want to be interactively ENTERTAINED. For some people, I suppose (maybe those who haven't had that much struggle in real life, I don't know) struggling and painful deaths are entertaining and fun in a game. But since every gamer obviously doesn't agree....this is why I think having games that both do and don't have that required "suffering for success" in them....is a good thing. Otherwise....just give people the OPTION of painful or easy gaming mode....problem solved.
Any game that gives lots of options on HOW you play it, is probably apt to be more successful than a game that doesn't afford anyone any options. That goes for single player games AND MMOs, I believe. The more you allow a player to formulate their own way of playing and having fun...the better, imo.
^^^^^ I just met my virtual TWIN. Hi there, Sis or Bro! And yes...I couldn't have stated it better (trust me...I've been trying). lol
I understand what you said about sadistic head games, this is not the case.
Every challenge in Demon's Souls is fair, always fair. If you know your character, the weapon you are using and pay attention to all "hints" and details Demon's Souls will be fair with you.
There are a lot of games with unfair challenging that in the end are very annoying, Demon's Souls only ask you concentrate and do your best without fooling around.
Usually people die in D.S because of their own mistakes, not because enemies are overpowerd or unfair. The balance in this game is very impressive.
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Difficult game. Cruel old school difficulty, excellent graphics, amazingly created "gloomy environment" with a very dark mystical lore. Overall, the best RPG I have ever played, because while it is unforgiving, it is also, in a way very fair. As long as you THINK about every step forward that you take and involve some damn strategy in your sword fights, the sense of achievement you get is greater than level'ing an 80 in WoW. In other words what I'm saying is, and you can take this for a fact, that if you actually think and play this game, you'll find it nowhere as hard as people make it out to be.
Also, best PvP EVER.It would be crazy if this was actually a real MMO.
:3 Demon's Souls. Also, Gamespot.com's Game Of The Year 2009, very deservingly so :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgYBivaVco8
Fair enough and thanks! I guess I just knee jerk half the time these days when WoW is even mentioned. I'm not a crazy fanboi, haven't played it since December, but so many people tend to just use WoW as the epitome of bad gameplay when it is by far no where near that.
I enjoyed the heck out of WoW but take a top end raiding guild from Everquest- transport them to WoW at level one and they beat all the content in one month - if they played as much as they played EQ. The same guild, if you whiped their memories of raid strategy would probably take 18 to 24 months to finish the content on EQ set at the original difficulty level.
Give the old timers a whip and give the new gamers WoW - everyone's happy.
Ok, this was bothering me a little. Call me nit-picky.
Your description of demon's souls is a little off. You can exit the level without beating it. You just have to go back to the beginning. Of course then the monsters respawn, but it's your choice.
Also, nothing kills you in one hit in the first level. Maybe they can stun you with their first hit and then hit you again and get you almost-death, but not kill you. Even if you're a barbarian (no armor).
Also you can kill that "unkillable" thing. You just need a higher block and a better shield. You can't kill him at level 1. Although I stayed away from him the first time I saw him. He's glowing red. When everything else in the level is tan or brown zombie like guys or regular soldiers, or maybe someone who glowed blue a little, that slightly large suit of armor wielding a javelin on a bridge with a giant sheild MADE OF GLOWING RED ENERGY in an area clearly not made for a boss, kinda dissuaded me from attempting to kill him.
Not to say this game isn't hard, though. It's kinda refreshing to get punched in the face by a game. And it's fun. Really fun. The PvP creates some EPIC battles, too. I was fighting this one guy for so long that both of our weapons broke and most of our armor was gone. I finally Got him trapped in a corner and firebombed him into the ground, but it lasted a good 45 minutes or more. It was awesome. He's now my friend.
In the Mega Drive / Sega Genesis era E.A. was very different.
They published "Shadow of the Beast" too (created by Psignosys) an incredible and vey hard game, unfortunatelly unlike "Demon's Souls", "Shadow of the Beast" is an unfair game, but the artstyle made up for it (and the immortality cheat).
five words:
LORD OF THE RINGS ONLINE
Awesome game. Not sure why you brought it up.
Another thing. RPGs at their very core are built so that at some point, you progress your character far enough that content does become "easy" that's the point of "experience" points.
I have to say, in regards to Demon's Souls, the game may be unforgiving at times but it IS overwhelmingly fair. If you pay attention and read other player's messages you REALLY can keep yourself from dying. When I played through it, I only died 5 to 6 times total. Once during the reaper puzzles, once in the swamp (my two most abhorred levels), once on MY most hated boss in the game, once from the dragon, and once or twice on the first level... I can guarantee you, all of those deaths were MY fault. If you keep a cool head on your shoulders and focus, the game is actually more fair in YOUR direction, after about 10-15 hours of playing I really felt the game was being unfair to the NPCs... then again, there were more than a few encounters that I came out of with sweaty palms and a sigh of relief. Given, I was a ranged character and was VERY careful, so that may have contributed to my success...
Edit: Also the un-killable boss IN the tutorial IS killable, you just need to dodge and stay to his right (swinging arm) side. He's slow and big so there's a bunch of spots right around him that he can't hit you without doing a predictable easy to avoid AoE attack, after you kill him though you get insta-gibbed in a cut scene... XP
Agreed.
I've never really understood the whole "challenge me with video games" mentality. Games are escapism, the good ones are like interactive novels. Folks that are measuring themselves against high scores and hard mode should probably put that kind of time and effort into their professional lives instead.
Games are, you know, games. Diversions, distractions, ultimately meaningless and frivolous unless you're a pro athlete.
You know "onetruth", every game has some kind of challenge, challenge can entertain.
But you know what is really sad about your words? You presume that every good game is like "interactive novels", you presume that folks who enjoy challenging but fair games are not able to put "that kind of time and effort" into their professional/personal lives.
Even the games that really work as interactive novels like Heavy Rain, Syberia, Myst have some kind of challenge.
For some people it is really hard to understand what does not belong to their personal taste, the funny thing about the subject is that Demon's Souls is probably one of the most escapists games relased in the last years, but it seems you are busy trying to judge others to make you and your personal opinion sound better.
Fair challenge make you pay attention to every step you take, make the escapist experience more intense for some players.
...
It’s sad to say “face-meltingly difficult MMOs” are unfortunately a thing of the past. The first MMO I was interested in was Anarchy online released in 2001. Logging into the world I was amazed at the sheer splendor of a virtual world, not including all the people running around talking and killing things. There was no tutorial, I just click a bunch of icons to see what was what, then pulled out the manual for some character control mechanics. The game had a max level of 200, I eventually hit 80 on my metaphysicist which unlocked a whole new world to me. My character could cast a nano spell that let me fly anywhere. I was so amazed at this accomplishment that I just stopped earning exp and flew everywhere I could. It took me months to get to 80 and I couldn't handle another 120. The game was very difficult, I had trouble soloing mobs and the character development was complex. Not only did I have to get armor and weapons, but I had to get body implants and a little floating ball for light in dark places.
I eventually switch to Dark Age of Camelot, and basically went through the same scenario, but the good news is it was only 50 levels and I learned that if I paid for 2 accounts I could have an advantage of a buff bot. Without a buff bot the game was almost impossible to solo, you had to be very good at your class and your gear needed to be near or higher than your level to be effective against equal level mobs. A normal mob in Dark Age of Camelot is the same as an elite mob in World of Warcraft, if not harder. Some Dark Age of Camelot mobs repeat instant cast Direct Damage Spells, killing you in a matter of seconds. Let’s not forget the first release of the epic zones. Everyone on the server ran to Dartmoor when they logged in and started gathering groups together. With a horde of players close to 200, all the groups rushed to the destroyed castle that Golestandt was supposed to be, just to find out that he wasn’t there, he was busy flying around the zone taunting people. He finally landed, everyone held their composure, and three full groups of tanks ran to the front of Golestandt, healers and casters standing behind the tanks as considered the standard position. In one breath attack he wiped 120 players leaving only the most geared standing to fight off the horde of trash mobs that spawned shortly after the first breath attack. Players ran in terror and it wasn’t a fear spell, it was actual fear that this huge creature was going to eat you next. The funny thing is people didn’t bitch about how hard it was, they were too busy trying to figure out a new method of attack. It takes a collection of mature minds to organize a 100 player raid, but without these challenges then the game lacks luster. You’re left with repetitive game play yearning for new content and ideas. That is what it used to be like; the game has taken a turn for the worst in the trend to simplify games.
World of Warcraft started this trend in 2004 and even if my tone is a little negative towards the constant production of easy games, I respect the fact that their raids offer challenges for the casual MMO player. I’m sure there are people out there that will disagree with me, but if you don’t raid on a scheduled basis you’re a casual gamer. Getting back on track, I would love to see an insanely difficult MMO, this easy trend is like bringing a Nerf gun to the shooting range. Now developers are making virtual stores instead of game content to pay their bills. An easy way to make revenue, how about we make a bunch simplistic games and repeat the process, easy games make easy revenue. Games built on complex mechanics and insanely crazy mobs are like cult classics, they are loved or hated, but never appealing to the masses.
Maybe to you, and maybe now, but they were not always so. The "fun" of games for a considerable time was the challenge provided and rising to defeat said challenge. You used to have to actually MAKE CHOICES and TRY to win things. It has been taken to a complete extreme now where games pander to the lowest skill level. Things feel meaningless and frivolous because the choices are gone and your wins are just being handed to you. Demon Souls is a great example, because there is not a damn thing in that game that isn't EARNED with sweat blood and tears. There's no "press start for an achievement!" in Demon Souls. If you have a trophy from that game, you can be damn well sure someone worked their ass off for it. I'm not saying everything should be taken to the same unforgiving extreme, but theres a difference between making things less difficult and the pure dumbing down that is happening to games today. I'm a big boy, I won't cry because I didn't get a medal for losing.
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Hey Hey
I would like to see more mmo's that follow the learning curve of chess or go, very easy to learn , and very hard to master. The challenge in those two classic games is not in how fast you move (speed/timed match's excluded) but in the strategic decisions you make, and attempting to out think many steps in advance. This is more difficult to create in a lot of modern mmo's becouse of the fast paced fighting, and button mashing, but i have high hopes that ffxiv will some how create a world, that while easy to jump in, will take a long time to truly master.
Welcome Home
Rev
Good article. I do feel we will see another MMO that doesn't go out of its way to penalize players, and, yet, be rewarding at the same time. In fact, I play that MMO today. DDO.
Its difficult enough to keep the morons away, yet easy enough for smart, dedicated players to solo, or "short man" a quest(running a quest with 2 or 3 live players).
DAoC was one another game that was rewarding, yet not too harsh.
I think MMO devs need to think like a motivator thinks. If you are constantly insulting people, degrading them, and beating their self esteem into the ground that person will not be around you for very long. If you give them rewarding content, achievable goals, and build up their self worth, then that person is going to be around for a long time. That doesn't mean making sure someone reaches max level in a week, or recieves loot that trivializes the game. Just like great bosses/motivators don't hand over the company to their workers.
I think a similar comparison is the difference between a guy who would like to swim twenty laps at the local Y and another guy who would rather swim a mile along the pacific coast, open ocean, way past the breakers. Both men enjoy the ativity, just one wants to add an element that some would consider unnecessary, for whatever their reason, its not their cup of tea.
Regardless, it is choices we make based on our personality and preferences. As long as their is a market for us folk who enjoy walking the line of danger, there will continue to be games made for our niche group. However, it does seem that our group is getting smaller (and it is getting smaller or there would have never been Trammel and EA would have paid more attention to Siege Perilous and not added three huge land masses)
As a side note. I didn't play EVE very long, but one of my favorite memories is when I was soloing missions, all of a sudden another ship attacked me, destroyed all my drones, told me to cease fire so he we could negotiate a payoff otherwise he was going to kill me. I gladly handed over 5 millions ISK. After which he gave me advice on how to avoid such situations! You wont find that in many games.
It's the choices we make.
I enjoyed this article, there is a lot of truth to what you say. As someone who threw many tantrums at my NES when I was a kid, I can totally relate (who turned off the NES?! I was on level 9!!!!). Saving your game was unheard of. I think because of these experiences I tend to enjoy more difficult games.
That being said, I can really appreciate the more casual games as well. Most of them do not hold my attention for long, but having a game you can play without needing to put forth serious "effort" can be a nice change of pace.
One of the reasons I am enjoying DDO so much right now is because you can scale the difficulty of dungeons up and down. Therefore, While I could easily run through the start of the game by myself by playing "solo" or "normal" modes, I can also choose to group (or not) and do those dungeons at "hard" or "elite" level. It's a nice flexibility, but only works because DDO is almost entirely instance based.
Nice article, but...... The "monster that is unkillable" in the first level, a.k.a. the first Red Eye Knight you meet in game, can be killed during the first play through of the level. The Red Eye Knight, like most obstacles in Demon's Souls can be beat through patience and caution. My favorite class, Royalty, starts at Soul Lvl 1 and is very capable of defeating the R.E.K. with the help of the Thieves Ring and Hit-And-Run tactics. For those of you that feel Demon's Souls is/may be too difficult I have this to say, I decided one day to see how far I could get before I had to lvl my Royal. I was able to defeat the first boss demon, Phalanx, as well as 3 other boss demons and the Red Dragon without summoning any Blue Phantoms or even dying once all with a lvl 1 character. The key, as I said above, is patience and caution. For the record, the other 3 bosses were: The Tower Knight, The Armor Spider and The Fool's Idol. Don't believe it is possible? Try it and see for yourself.
Don't get me wrong, the game can be, and often is, brutal and unforgiving. I nearly gave up when I first started playing but now I am hooked for life.
Right, so because I like to cruise through my video games, I've had everything handed to me. Mmmkay. Hate to burst your (ill)logic bubble, but the word 'earn' implies a reward that is tangible and desirable. I've beaten a lot of video games (yes even hard ones, possibly even before you were born), but I have never 'earned' anything in a video game. Every video game has been beaten by thousands, if not millions of people, in the exact same way, using the exact same tactics, and for the exact same meaningless 'rewards.'
If it floats your boat spending weeks to beat a game on hard, that's terrific, but don't mistake that as some sort of accomplishment that should be bragged about.
It's frivolous, turn-your-brain off entertainment, just like going to a movie. Things earned are things of substance: respect, money, love (though that one isn't always earned).
Keep busting ass and earning your video game rewards though, and I'll keep killing gaming.
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You know "onetruth", every game has some kind of challenge, challenge can entertain.
But you know what is really sad about your words? You presume that every good game is like "interactive novels", you presume that folks who enjoy challenging but fair games are not able to put "that kind of time and effort" into their professional/personal lives.
Even the games that really work as interactive novels like Heavy Rain, Syberia, Myst have some kind of challenge.
For some people it is really hard to understand what does not belong to their personal taste, the funny thing about the subject is that Demon's Souls is probably one of the most escapists games relased in the last years, but it seems you are busy trying to judge others to make you and your personal opinion sound better.
Fair challenge make you pay attention to every step you take, make the escapist experience more intense for some players.
...
You know, "Umbral," I'm sorry that my opinion hit so close to the mark for you. It is simply my opinion, and I meet people every day that validate it.
I've played Demon Souls and enjoyed it to a point, and I agree that it is very well done and immersive. That said, people that continually cry about games being too easy will never get sympathy from me.
If you've mastered something to the point that it's no longer challenging, go find something new to do, don't whine about the good old days and how much harder games used to be. There are a lot of people in this world that don't have the luxury of playing games at all, easy or hard.
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Lmao.
Erm, cry more?
Right, so because I like to cruise through my video games, I've had everything handed to me. Mmmkay. Hate to burst your (ill)logic bubble, but the word 'earn' implies a reward that is tangible and desirable. I've beaten a lot of video games (yes even hard ones, possibly even before you were born), but I have never 'earned' anything in a video game. Every video game has been beaten by thousands, if not millions of people, in the exact same way, using the exact same tactics, and for the exact same meaningless 'rewards.'
If it floats your boat spending weeks to beat a game on hard, that's terrific, but don't mistake that as some sort of accomplishment that should be bragged about.
It's frivolous, turn-your-brain off entertainment, just like going to a movie. Things earned are things of substance: respect, money, love (though that one isn't always earned).
The fact that people like you turn it into a job and, even more hysterically, ascribe some sort of fake reward system onto a completely meaningless act, is quite a sad commentary.
Keep busting ass and earning your video game rewards though, and I'll keep killing gaming.
Lol.
/salute
/claps
I applaud this statement. I don't know where people get off on telling other people that like a different KIND OF GAME than they do, that they're "killing gaming." What a moronic load of crap. LMAO
There's plenty of room in the world for masochistic gamers, and rest and relaxation gamers, and all kinds of OTHER gamers. And just because not ALL of us like challenges that make us want to rip our hair out from the roots, doesn't mean that either play style is RIGHT or WRONG. They're preferences.
Furthermore....they're preferences in GAMES, for fucksake. We're not talking life altering shit here. Mr. or Mrs. "Give Me Pain and Challenges that Make Me Throw the Game Controller at the Television Set," isn't any more RIGHT than Mr. or Ms. "Tell Me a Great Story and Let Me Enjoy Playing a Fairly Relaxing Part in It." We're ALL paying to play what WE PERSONALLY enjoy.
Oh yes...and NEWS FLASH......
Gaming isn't anywhere CLOSE to dying. It's more popular today that it has EVER been. It's just that NOW....games are made for all different kinds of people, different budgets, different intellects, different preferences, different time schedules, etc. etc. Maybe what the fellow that accused you of "killing gaming" is really upset about, is that it's no longer a private club where only the ubergeeks need apply. My mother can play games now if she wants to, and she's 67 years old. And frankly....I rather LIKE that there's now something out there for EVERYONE. I hate that elitism gamer mentality that assumes that gaming is only for geeks. HORSESHIT.
Gaming....is for EVERYONE.
I guess that just means that those of you that love your super hard challenges...will just have to live in the same world with those of us that DON'T particularly like their games THAT damn hard. Because guess what? We're not going anywhere. And I don't suppose that you all are either. So let's just agree that we REEEEEAALLLY disagree, and move along, eh?
Well, I was with you until your last... From my perspective its not those who have a life outside of the game who are to blame for the endless dumbing down we've all witnessed. Its those who have allowed themselves to become dependent who make up that demographic. Not only dependent(which is bad enough), but also cursed with a strong sense of entitlement. Our entire society has rotted from the inside out due to the combination of those two traits. Where once we were a society of thinkers and doers(scientists, engineers, technicians, craftsmen), now FAR too many of us labor in the mind numbing "service" industries, or push little piles of paper from one side of ones desk to the other(government at all levels). The US has gone from the largest creditor nation, to the largest debtor nation in that same time span.
One can't really fault the game industry for playing to that ever increasing demographic. One of the main objects after all is to make a profit on the investments required. Blizzard has demonstrated the massive profits to be had by doing it right. Which has left many companies scrambling in the attempt to duplicate the success of World of Warcraft. But like it or not, the only threat to WoW at this point is Blizzard themselves.
Kordesh,
You talk about playing a GAME for entertainment as though it's in the same category with real life. No. I can say, with complete confidence, that you are DEAD WRONG (at least in regards to THAT matter).
There are a LOT...a WHOLE LOT...of people that work VERY hard every day that do NOT want to come home and play a "challenging" game, but do enjoy gaming. They don't WANT to have to come home and wrack their brain. And why SHOULD they?? No one is paying them to play a video game. They're doing it for FUN. Just because our ideas of fun are not identical doesn't mean we want everything "handed to us." That's a MASSIVE leap in logic there, Bud. (By the way, I didn't say that only people that didn't struggle in real life liked challenge in games. I was actually suggesting that as a laughable possibility, I said "perhaps," and "I don't know.") What I DO know....is that people have all DIFFERENT preferences in recreation. And your choices aren't right or wrong.
How is it that you perceive that their idea of FUN being relaxing and not overly difficult, has any reflection on how hard they work? So you're saying the oil rigger, that for recreation wants to go just lie on the beach for fun, is a lazy bastard who's had everything handed to him on a silver platter, essentially?
Thou dost protest too much, me thinks.....
By the way, I have 3 grown children. Parenting teaches you a lot about making choices you can't take back in SO many arenas.... REAL choices, not choices in a GAME. I don't really think any of us here probably have earned the right to lecture any of the rest of us here about making important choices. Real life does a fine job of testing ones' mettle. Games, to ME (yes...my OPINION) are not made for that purpose. But...to each their own. A few of us here happen to disagree with you. Some others agree with you. We're not going to change your mind, and likewise....you likely won't be changing ours.
theres a huge differance between hard and grinding, but it seems people today cant tell the difference so games like WoW(Which i do like despite being easy mode) prosper over other games that have long grinds/more challenges. Personally i feel a great sense of accomplishment when i finish a long quest chain in eq2 or other challenges
I think as a MMO developer (or I hope) you would want to put most of the decision in the hands of your players, not decide for them. Dungeons and Dragons Online had a good idea as a start but it's not exactly fine tuned. City of Heroes too allows for player to 'Pick' the difficulty they want to play at. Choice is always better.
I find great fun in shooting 500 zombies, and the occasional raid. It depends on my mood and what my friends are up to. I hate however being told "Nope, you don't get to decide" by a dungeon being so insanely difficult I must spend sixteen hours playing it, loaded with caffine, and have finely tuned twitch skills to get past it.
I believe, honestly, for a game to be enjoyable by a wide variety of individuals you must have options. Let individuals decide the difficulty of the content they play. Let players design their own 'dungeons' or missions for those whom might be interested. City of Heroes did this with architect to a certain extent. Players could review different dungeons and give feedback so other players weren't forced to play insanely difficult missions if they didn't want to.
That being said, the one thing both offline games, and mmos do wrong I believe is that they require you to play at a 'difficult' setting to get any sort of epic feeling going. I believe like options, players need a more epic feel sometimes. Personally being a lone hero against 500 enemies does it for me. If the enemies aren't necessarily hard, it makes me have a great deal of fun seeing how I can defeat, and how.
I have played the other side of things as well though. The satisfaction of beating something really hard is good, but most gamers now have arthritis/damaged nervous systems from all the button mashing/typing/mouse abuse they experienced when they were younger. Calculate your target audience, and appeal to it. Can you blame some companies for making games that are 'easy'?
First off, very well written article. Kudos.
That being said, here's one thing that bugged me about it. 'Accessible'. The word, presented within the context of this article, is directly at odd with difficulty. I disagree. That there, I believe, is the exact problem with difficulty.
Too many games use difficulty as not just a perk, but an excuse for poor game design. Demon's Souls, though not perfect, has a generally simple and responsive design to it. It doesn't take long to grasp how to play the game, and the challenge comes in mastering it. The reason why this is fun, and other games are not, is because while people do enjoy a challenge, they do not enjoy the challenge being to combat the game's design. It's no fun to not be able to beat a boss, because it's bugged (FFXI), nor is it fun to lose in a game because your skills don't work properly.
Difficulty should be a master stroke of good game design. It should be attempted by studios who know how to make a solid game first, then know how to make it challenging. The same trend found in demon's souls can also be found in many of the games most loved, and challenging. Super Mario, Eve, both these games can be picked up and excelled at by almost anyone, however the challenge tends to come from mastering it.
The trend for most MMOs for a long time has been to replace this key element of mastery, with the idea of investment or knowledge. MMOs have substituted difficulty for the amount of information or time one has to invest in a game to excel in it. As more and more people get sick of investing massive amounts of time to a game that plays exactly like the 50 before it, it gets more and more difficult to enjoy such a game. The challenge becomes more about memorizing where to find things (not much of one, given the internet), and less about how well you actually play.
I hope to see this trend start to turn around a bit.
This.
Demon's Souls is the epitome of crafted difficulty. The difficulty isn't because of poor designs, its from understanding the differences between weapons, between 2-hand and one-hand wielding them, parrying or guarding, using the dodge effectively, all of that. The only time a monster will not pose a threat is when you are levels above the area's intended difficulty (assuming you are neutral at tendency). The game has replay value, in that the difficulty increases with the new-game plus, and collecting all the unique weapons is quite the feat in itself. At best, it takes 4 replays to gather it all. Armor, at higher levels, becomes less effective, letting you choose your style for the most part.
And, reading this article has made me want to pick up and play some more Demon's Souls...
I can understand though, why people shun the idea of having a game with a system as harsh as DS's in an MMO. The game punishes you for rushing and being reckless and dumb. Yahtzee's review of it proves that. I am not saying he's dumb, rather he was trying to rush the game. As he said, the more he rushed, the more he died. A bloody good reason why you need a lot of time for Demon's Souls when reviewing it is precisely that. If you set yourself for playing only for 3 hours, as you get close to that mark, you'll just hurry more, and you'll make less progress. Given 20 hours, his opinion probably would of improved (though he wouldn't admit it, he's literally paid to nitpick).
An MMO that forced you to lose all your currency and unspent experience would drive players bonkers, specially if its in a PvP focused setting. Especially if you added a level-draining/losing mechanic like in Demon's Souls... whoo boy, people would go nuts over that... even if it was set to one very risky spell, or if you die to something so stupid you almost deserve it...
You know, "Umbral," I'm sorry that my opinion hit so close to the mark for you. It is simply my opinion, and I meet people every day that validate it.
I've played Demon Souls and enjoyed it to a point, and I agree that it is very well done and immersive. That said, people that continually cry about games being too easy will never get sympathy from me.
If you've mastered something to the point that it's no longer challenging, go find something new to do, don't whine about the good old days and how much harder games used to be. There are a lot of people in this world that don't have the luxury of playing games at all, easy or hard, which is why I find it distasteful when whiny bitches complain that games aren't challenging enough for them.
Close to the mark for me?
Lets see... did I "cry" about games being too easy?
Did I whine about the good old days?
What I mentioned in your post is how you judge players that also like challenge games just like the one that will judge players that prefer easy ones.
Today is hard to find unique games, than you can call me a whiner because I can't stand every game turning into a shooter with a bald marine on it, but I won't bitch about it, I will just buy games like Demon's Souls and forget what I don't like... so, in the same way I think Demon's Souls is the best game of the last years, I am really waiting for Heavy Rain... a game which you can call an "interactive novel".
You assume to much, people don't want your "sympathy", but if your express your opinions in a forum expect to get answers, and not always people will agree with you.
There are all kinds of games and movies today, unfotunatelly the unique ones are harder to find and sometimes they do not belong to mainstream (sometimes they do), so it is understandable when you see someone looking for something that is rare to find, what is annoying is, that doesn't matter what someone enjoy or is looking for, there will always be someone judging and using lables on that person, just like you did... just like the guy calling a casual RP player "carebear" on this website.
You are right about all your points related to Demon's Souls, the article really has some mistakes.
Especially about the "unkillable" knight... after 1-3 /1-4 the red eyes knight is a standart enemy in the game but you are also much more stronger.
I am under the impression that Justin Webb played only the first hours of Demon's Souls, if my impression is right then a couple of his mistakes can be understandable...his article is not exactly about Demon's Souls anyway.
I agree with you about PvP, the multiplayer mode is also very interesting.
What I really missed about Justin Webb comments related to Demon's Souls is the detail about how fair the game is, I know a lot of posters here already said that (myself included), but from the article Demon's Souls sound more like a punishing game than a challenging one, the only time when Demon's Souls will punish the player is when the gamers is not paying attention or making huge mistakes.
It is really hard to find a challenging game that also has perfect balance and fairness... Demon's Souls is one of these exceptions.
The eerie and melancholic atmosphere that Demon's Souls has is also unique.
To tell the truth, I think some details like the melancholic atmosphere, the MMO similarities (the game is saved every second like in a persistent game), the unique and "mystic" way the multiplayers actions take place and the complex but balanced RPG system behind the game are details that are more important in Demon's Souls than the balanced intense challenge. The rewarding challenge is, without a doubt a plus, but Demon's Souls has much more than that to offer.
...
I haven't played Demon Souls, and probably won't either. But I did spend months (and yes years too) playing Manic Miner and Jet Set Willy (I did finally complete Manic Miner, but even with infinite lives JSW was just too damned hard).
But it was the teasing ability to go one more step, combined with ultra-simple gameplay (no series of icon bars running all the way round the screen, just left, right and jump) that kept me hooked. In the same way that I loved Tetris (there is no end, seriously you can play that 24 hours a day, 365 days a week and it's still exactly the same but people played it for months on end).
But there's a difference between the teasing challenge of the simple games, and the ridiculously annoying too hard boss fight at the end of a level of a game you've paid an arm and a leg for (JSW was 3 quid compared to the 50/60 today for a new release) that you try to do for 15+ hours, before giving up.
And in an MMORPG you have to allow for every player to have that level of commitment in order for it to succeed as a "hard mode" which is why so few players bothered to PuG in WoW until the dungeon finder tool came along. For every gamer that loves the ridiculous challenge, there are 99 who don't, can't be bothered and want value for their money too.
Why would anyone get involved with an MMORPG if they knew (and it doesn't take long for feedback to get out there) that after 1 week of playing, they wouldn't be any further than when they started.
So many good games (like X^2 for example) disappeared due to their ridiculous learning curves (and x^2 could actually be completed, it was just too much effort for most).
So now, my mobile phone is where I play frustrating but simple games (pick up, play a level, put down, forget for a month or so and then move on). for my megabucks subscriptions to online stuff I really need more to keep my interest and to feel that I have value for money.
I enjoy end game content but minor gear progression isn't it. And sandbox environments like EVE don't really do it for me either. For an MMORPG I probably have a two year limit with all the progression thrown in, and collecting achievements etc. (as per WoW) but when all is said and done, even with the "relative ease" of games like WoW, they're still the same mindless button pushing as Manic Miner, they're just prettier and more rewarding as that button pushing moves on.
Banging your head against the wall for 40 hours a week trying to make miniscule progress? It might have kept me busy as a kid during the summer holidays, now... I need more.
Game design is now viewed as a marketing decision. You used to create a great game and because it was great players wanted to buy it. Now games are created with their demographic in mind and in an effort to make that demographic as large as possible they are all on easy mode.
The marketing concept is that we would prefer to finish the game than valiantly fail and if you can’t succeed in a MMO that means a cancelled sub. But I question the psychology involved; hard games maintain interest and a MMO once completed is one people move on from. MMO’s have substituted difficulty for grind, we used to have grind, but now we have more of it to make up for the fact it is easier.
Do players play a game to complete it or because it challenges them? I think that even if you start gaming just wanting to complete a game you soon search for a challenge. Corporate’s have lost sight of the fact that games reflect life, driving to work is not as interesting as driving a stock car. Completing a 9 to 5 is not as interesting as saving a patient’s life in surgery or arresting a criminal.
Easy MMO’s are a major factor contributing to MMO launch fails and the inability of MMO’s to maintain traction in their player base. But what do MMO’s do when they see the player numbers falling? They make the game easier thinking it will attract more players that way, what they think is a cure is in fact helping to kill them.
Surely it's about having both that enables MMO success? Look at WoW, you can level to 80 solo or grouped, you can PvP or not, you can instance run or not, and you can raid or not. All these things are set at different levels of difficulty, we quit after wiping ten times on Toravon in VoA 25 last week for example, but I know I'll go back and try again. But if I simply couldn't progress in anything? It would be Tetris all over again, and not worth my subscription fee.
Like a lot have said, a challenging game needs to easy to learn and hard to master (Demon's Souls being a good example, Super Mario Bros. 3 being the best example I have played yet), but like most things it's a lot easier said than done.
I think a good starting point would be add challenges (and I don't mean 'achievements') to an otherwise 'easy mode' MMO. For example, when I was playing WoW I used to try to solo elites for the fun it. Another example would be running instances with less than the maximum number of people. If you took activities like that and attached a reward to it, say slightly better drops (like what normally drops +1), you could build a system that catered to both those just looking for some fun, and those looking for a challenge.
An important point though would be to keep players moving forward, even if only a little. By this I mean don't have exp / level / item loss unless it is absolutely the players choice and they are fully aware of the risks (like when invading another players game in Demon's Souls where you risk losing a level).
I did that too,in WoW.:)
I not a Masochrist,or whatever it is( I'm sadistic though) and I enjoy difficult games. Mostly for the bragging rights. Beating a difficult game is like beating a top Chess player in a match. People said a game should be fun. Well, some people get fun from having a challenge,not being beaten with a stick just because the game is impossiple. I'm not a hardcore gamer, but I enjoy games for the challenge that have that brings out your skill. Trauma Center is a another good game. Its fair,actually unrealistic in my opinion, and takes skill. And if your skilled enough,then its "difficulty" isn't as difficult.
I have tried many MMOs over the last few years, and have noticed a paradox: the more often your charaacter dies in the game, the more ALIVE it feels! For example, when I tried out LOTRO, my character felt like a piece of code - I got to level 9 without dieing once! It felt boring. By contrast, when playing WoW, i found myself needing to keep track of my character's armour, weapons, durability, mana... Almost like taking care of it. Now I'm playing Face of Mankind, getting shot dead by gankers every day and loving it! I'll find a way to beat them soon...
In other words, the harder the game is to win, the more interest there is in beating it. Players should feel like they've EARNED their victory. Developers, give us harder games please!
I don't understand this article... why he is moaning about lack of hardcore games on mmo market? Except for some occasional trials, last 7 years of my mmorpg gaming I spend in Lineage 2 (running around red is fun :P), EVE (my shiny ship just went poof) and DF (my shiny armor just went poof). If you are looking for harder mmo you will find one. Playing WoW or WoW clones and whining there nothing out there is just silly.
Lineage 2 is not exactly a challenging game.
Lineage 2 is a time consuming game, encounters and dynamics in Lineage 2 are simple and easier than EQ/EQ2/WoW.
You may say leveling, death penalty and gear are much more time consuming, expensive and harsh than some other MMOs, but the game itself is not "hard". Especially PvE, you need less strategy in Lineage 2 group/raid/dungeon than in FFXI, GW, WoW, EQ, EQ2 etc
/claps
I applaud this statement. I don't know where people get off on telling other people that like a different KIND OF GAME than they do, that they're "killing gaming." What a moronic load of crap. LMAO
There's plenty of room in the world for masochistic gamers, and rest and relaxation gamers, and all kinds of OTHER gamers. And just because not ALL of us like challenges that make us want to rip our hair out from the roots, doesn't mean that either play style is RIGHT or WRONG. They're preferences.
Furthermore....they're preferences in GAMES, for fucksake. We're not talking life altering shit here. Mr. or Mrs. "Give Me Pain and Challenges that Make Me Throw the Game Controller at the Television Set," isn't any more RIGHT than Mr. or Ms. "Tell Me a Great Story and Let Me Enjoy Playing a Fairly Relaxing Part in It." We're ALL paying to play what WE PERSONALLY enjoy.
Oh yes...and NEWS FLASH......
Gaming isn't anywhere CLOSE to dying. It's more popular today that it has EVER been. It's just that NOW....games are made for all different kinds of people, different budgets, different intellects, different preferences, different time schedules, etc. etc. Maybe what the fellow that accused you of "killing gaming" is really upset about, is that it's no longer a private club where only the ubergeeks need apply. My mother can play games now if she wants to, and she's 67 years old. And frankly....I rather LIKE that there's now something out there for EVERYONE. I hate that elitism gamer mentality that assumes that gaming is only for geeks. HORSESHIT.
Gaming....is for EVERYONE.
I guess that just means that those of you that love your super hard challenges...will just have to live in the same world with those of us that DON'T particularly like their games THAT damn hard. Because guess what? We're not going anywhere. And I don't suppose that you all are either. So let's just agree that we REEEEEAALLLY disagree, and move along, eh?
This. Props to girlgeek. To each his own, and let's all remember we're playing games.
There is ONLY one hard PVE game and that is FFXI.For PVP games they all have too many flaws,from offline advancement[definitely not hard mode]to time=reward,to better gear=win all that is not hard mode that is CHEAP mode.
Sure with the internet many players can copy ideas from other players,but in the early days ,NOTHING came close to the complexity of FFXI.That is why i fell in love with the game,it made me think about everything i do,nothing was automatic.
An example was in early days i automatic drew out my bow and started every solo fight with a bow,figuring that early first shot gave me the advantage.Later i realized there were other factors in prolonged fights,if it was like MOST games a 2-3 hit fight then yes that was a huge advantage,but not so in FFXI.You can bind,enfeeb witch gives better long term results,different classes offer again more diversity in combat,such as using the Thief with SA or Hide.A job like Ranger could load up his ability and have a high damage initial attack and be onto his WS much faster than all other jobs.Using the TP system and timers made for a lot of thinking,unlike MOST games you mash away at your hotbar and MOST timers are ridiculous 2-5 second timers and the fights are probably over already anyhow lol.
The problem is that EVERY single game basically copies EQ,it is very sad to see little to no diversity in game play,the same hotbar setup,the same one player single class system,nobody has learned to create anything new,except of course Square Enix.I would be willing to bet weather you or I like FFXIV,it will again be creative and challenging,far more so than any of these other EQ copy cats.
Death penalty, item drop and ability to loose a castle during siege is enough to consider it a lot harder than games you listed. I'm of course speaking about PvP. PvE was dull as in any other game.
What you are refering is time consuming and harsh penalties (some times inflicted by lag or other players only), not exactly challenging.
Unfortunatelly PvE in Lineage 2 is much, much more dull than most other games. (played the game for a long time in its early years and recently revisited the game)
Raid and Dungeon content are not popular around these forums but this kind of group content in some MMORPGs are far from dull.
Demon's Souls has the type of challenging content that may bring something new and interesting to MMOs, the dullness of pure and brainless time consuming offered by L2 won't make any game more interesting.
do find it fun how you in alot of these comments can see ppl have been playing MMOs for years. that you only really would have time for 1 game.
that said. reading about demons souls made me buy it....in mind since I dont have a PS3 :P, not because its oh so hardcore. but because it looks amazing.,,,,but I for sure dont want to sit feel like I could go through lvls with my eyes closed only have to open them to read abit of lore.....games need to be interactive to me. not a book...
One thing i found confusing about the artcle is that it was stated that you appreciated and respected the difficulty of Demon's souls and liked it for that, yet you quit EQ because of its difficulty.
I know many points were made about other games you liked but loving difficulty then hating it a few paragraphs down seemed a bit confusing on your main point of the article. Maybe its just me.
I think its because in EQ, the "difficult" features (the death penalty in particular) just annoyed me, while, in Demon's Souls, the difficulty seems "fair". But, yeah, I totally get your comment ... it is a bit confusing.
That's one of the reasons why I wrote the article, because I didn't bounce off Demon's Souls like I did off of EQ. And I wanted to investigate why that might be.
Writing a weekly article is still a pretty new thing for me -- I'm much more used to cranking out dry boring design docs. Hopefully, my articles are getting better as time goes on.
Anyways, thanks for the comments. They make me try harder the next time..
If we discount WoW as a statistical outlier (which everyone should, but rarely do), the one thing that the hard games have over the easy ones is longevity. Hard games require an investment. Once you're invested, it's hard to let go. Easy games are ... well ... easy to leave. And you don't particularly care what happens to your character because you can start a fresh one and cap the game in two or three months.
If we include WoW, then what you see isn't that the game keeps people around. It's that the number of people have reached the critical mass where they start staying for each other. WoW has become a cartoon chat room where people of all shapes, sizes and ages can be different people of all shapes, sizes and ages. Blizzard didn't really do anything else that anyone else hasn't done, and done it better. But people are now invested in the group, and as long as the group stays put, everyone stays put.
And call EVE a niche all you want. But it's probably one of the few games that can boast an increasing subscription base throughout its lifetime. That fact alone proves that more and more people are looking for more from a game than a themepark with devs holding your hand like mommy at disney world. Start looking at the increasing age of the average gamer, and more adult themes (conan) and more complex games (Fallen Earth) are going to become the norm again.
At least I hope so.
Maybe because the fair difficult of Demon's Souls make you really develop your skills and tatics as a player, you actually became a better player and improve your character ingame, the perfect balance in Demon's Souls make it explicit. It is a real challenge and as every real challenge it is rewarding.
The time sinking of some MMOs are not the same, as I said before they are not exactly hard in a challenging way, but time consuming... and annoying.
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"Unforgiving" is different to "Difficult." Isn't it?
The description of the perils of Demon'sesSouls make it sound more like the former. That is, one shot deaths. That's unforgiving.
"Difficult" on the other hand offers a potentially broader spectrum of peril before total destruction, ie having a health bar erode away over a SERIES of harrowing ordeals. It could be just as hard, but not as infuriating, surely.
I utterly utterly hate having to reload from ages back. This kind of game mechanic just spells frustration for me. I like that so many people brought Dragon Age up a game in which I found myself completely repeatedly murdered by street thugs, but only mildly inconvenienced by my (very milnor spoiler) battle with the arch-demon.
With the exception of that fact that I was being made a fool of by STREET THUGS, I didn't mind having to reload to fight them again. Why? There were plenty of things I could try. There was an ebb and flow. A back and forth. A sort of quite tangible teetering scale of victory visible throughout the fight. Sure, everything I did was critical, but I would be undone by a combination of mistakes rather than one slip.
Anyhow, I think its important to separate those two definitions out. I love a hard game but Demons's'sssS'souls's doesn't sound like my cup of tea, based on that list offered. They weren't perils so much as punishments.
Bugger that.
MMO genre needs more "hard" games like this to add some variety to the games published and fill a gap that many of us out here want.
Thanks for such a thorough response, it sounds indeed like I did get a false impression.
I'll have to take a closer look at the game and consult my financial advisor (girlfriend) about actually purchasing it.
Hey Is "THE IMMORTAL" the game where if you stood still for more then a few seconds a worm would come out of the floor and eat you? If it is that game drove a friend and I insane for 5 days straight. we could never succed at the last fight thought, tried everything we could think of but never beat it. That damn game still haunts me to this day.
Aaahh.... Battletoads! That was an awesome game... and it took forever before i made it through.
I was especially fond of the yellow murderous ducks. If you got too close they would one-shot you, sending you flying across the screen.
Sorry, but any good video game will let the player choose how difficult they want the game to be. WoW does this inherently, since you can strip your gear, and group with a bunch of noobs if you want a real challenge. Most of these whiners use so many addons and only take players with the highest gearscores, and then whine that the game is too easy. Whatever.
Do players not have any creativity or imagination left? They expect to be spoonfed "challenging" content instead of being able to find a challenge in the more mundane aspects of these games. "Boring", to me, lies in the same subjective category as "challenging".
Another thing I find interesting in this thread is the amount of punishment they're willing to accept from a single encounter in a game.
For me, I love games so much I want to play many of them. There are more games I want to play then there is time to play them, and I play a LOT of hours (semi-retired).
Having said that, if I fail to beat a boss on the second attempt, I'm seriously reanalyzing my strategy. But if I fail 5 or 6 times, I'm immediately going to the internet to find a solution/cheat. If for whatever reason, I'm still unable to get past an encounter by say, try twelve or thirteen, I uninstall the game and seriously consider whether or not to ever buy another game by that publisher.
Let the player choose the difficulty that is most fun to them. If you design a game where many players can get stuck, they may wind up simply not experiencing the content that follows that point. Surely, no creator wants that. In designing a game, I would have many difficulty settings, including a 'you-can't-lose' one. No game should ever have a single encounter (save perhaps the very last one) where a player can get perma-stuck.
I have to make steady progress in every game. Any less kills my immersion and fun. Heck, I have played many sections of games on god-mode because the playing of the game gets in the way of the story it is trying to tell.
It's not a lack of patience with challenges, I'm just eager to see what's next, to continue the journey. In thirty years of playing computer games, I would say I've completed perhaps half of them. Sometimes that's due to losing interest, but sometimes it's due to difficutly. I always feel shorted when this happens.
I'm seriously LOL'ing my ass off at people here who are getting so defensive about games that pose a challenge and how we don't need them because there's so much bull **** going on in their lives that they don't need it from games. I'm pretty sure then all these people never watch horror and thriller movies and there DVD shack is full of only comedies and Christmas movies, right? Right. And for these people, casual games are EVERYWHERE. Look around you, find me 1 gamestore where you won't find World Of Warcraft or Modern Warfare 2?
Whereas gems like Demon's Souls are once in a while treat. Totally. ****ing. Epic DS is. Only game out of my current library that totally makes me forget everything and immerses me in. Believe me when I say this, there's so much **** going on in my life right now you wouldn't believe how I managed a PS3/HDTV even.
But Demon's Souls...woah...the challenge in this game is so brilliant and agressive, I LOVE IT. The lore is beautifully dark and mystical, and if you play online you feel you're never alone even though nobody is there with you. And the challenge, the action in the game literally brings out the absolute best in me. THIS is how Gaming began for me on NES with Super Mario Bros. You die, you spawn back at the very beginning, limited life spawns, the game does not care if you were 2 steps after from saving the final princess on your last life, Game Over. NO save points/level passwords, if you don't think and play with strategy you have no hopes of finishing the game.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with asking more stuff like DS, Casuals are EVERYWHERE, you people have nothing to complain about. And unless its hard and challenging, its not exciting for me and a lot of other people. For the same reasons the only MMO I'm looking forward to is FF14.
Also some posts here are making DS sound like the game will put you through hell no matter what. Not true. Game is unforgiving only if you take it for granted, but as long as you think about every step that you take back and forth and every little attack that you make, you'll be beating end level bosses like 4-2, 3-3 and 3-4 in first try. Just keep your shields up, keep your distance, and strike when they are open, then put your shields back up. And you'll see it pays off when you play with strategy.
Not ONE DAMN PERSON has said that "we don't need games that pose a challenge." NOT ONE.
Then why are you getting so upset?
Just because we don't choose to play the absolute most difficult of games, doesn't mean we don't think there are other people that might love those.
Absolutely, world would be boring without variety.
have not been the people that aren't fond of extremely difficult games, but the others that love them.
O RLY NAO? I haven't read most of this thread, then what's all the debate about? Oddly enough I'm seeing your posts on like, every page here attacking nearly all the posts pro-difficult games.
Just because it's the kind that YOU like doesn't make the kinds that others like BAD.
Well said.
Wrong. I have ALL kinds of movies on my DVD shelf and it's a rather large collection. I also subscribe to Netflix. I'm into all types of movies.
Let me put this another way, you said before people...or you rather not play difficult games because there's too much misery in real life? Yet you still watch horror movies.
Same way there are people who are Resident Evil, Silent Hill fans who actually don't have a merry and perfect life. Some just love horror, thrills of challenging games because its entertaining to them, and real life has nothing to do with it. Everyone is different.
YAY for you! I'm glad you're playing a game you're enjoying! Now if you would just extend that same consideration to others that enjoy other TYPES of games....gee wouldn't that be swell? lol
Consideration? What do you want me to say exactly? When did I ever say being a casual gamer is bad in any way? All I said was casual, light games are everywhere and stuff like Demon's Souls is hard to come by.
O__o
AGAIN....who said that there WAS anything wrong with you wanting more games like this??? No one. And I don't see anyone complaining EITHER. We're only stating our own preferences, just like YOU are....dif? I like challenges. I do NOT like feeling like ripping my hair out. To ME...those things are not equivalent. That isn't fun for ME. And while you have YOUR preference in challenge level, so do others. You're not RIGHT....and neither are those that don't like quite as extreme of a challenge. There's nothing to be "right" about. We all just have different taste. Big fucking deal.
I'm like you there, infact, if there's a game that will make me rip my hair off (see some of the games that Angryvideogamenerd plays), I won't bother with it because that's just asking for unreal amounts of dedication and skill that really isn't worth the trouble. DS, while you die a lot and lose everything, I just curse myself for dying, not the game, because the game clearly told me if I slack off I will die and it was entirely my fault that I have start over because had I been more careful, I would have seen that fall/hidden mob or whatever, and that's where its successful.
And like you said, everyone has their preference. I don't see what the big debate here is about. If someone is saying challenging hard games are only things that matter in life then they don't what they're saying, and on the other hand if anybody is saying Easy games are the way of life because we've got too much to deal with in real life also need to get some balls.
I'm ok with the WoW level of easyness. I'm not logging on to these games to constantly get punched in the face (as you say). I really don't like PvP because it almost always starts being abused by brainless 12-year-olds, who I could easily destroy in real life with a single blast from my nose. EVE has about the maximum level of PvP that I will tolerate, not too much of a problem if you play it half way smart.
I myself want MMO to get their RPG flair back. They are to easy now and I see you mentioned STO. Talk about easy mode, it isn't even an MMO more of a single player online game. It is almost impossible to die in the game outside of PvP. I stopped playing it because there is no challenge but what are we to do since this is the tread, single player MMOs all over the place which shouldn't even have a subscription fee.
Cut the personal attacks and stay on topic guys. You're on thin ice, consider this your warning.
I think the thing I enjoy most in a game is the sense of achievement. And the harder the game, the more satisfying the achievement.
Some may disagree with this sentiment, and they are welcome to it. For me, the most satisfying things require the most sweat and tears. So now I am going to go take on a guild in Darkfall... WITH my armor!
Come get some, Carebears!
I miss the days of UO, when dying was such a bad thing you had to laugh to keep from crying. Bring back something like that plz :)
What I dont get is that everyone loves to call WoW "Easy Mode" and all the old MMOs "Hard".
What makes these old MMOs hard and WoW easy? Ive never got a straight answer to this. Only ever gotten the standard "WoW is super easy, it hands everything to you" response.
Harsh death penalties and level grinding isnt difficult or challenging its just time consuming.
So you can level fast in WoW and get raid quality geared in a week, big deal. Doesnt mean you can actually beat the raids.
Also, Ive played Demons Souls and I didnt find it challenging, I thought it was annoying and repetitive. Being jumped by a pack of mobs that can kill you in 2 hits isnt challenging its just stupid. The archaic ideal that stronger and faster enemies = more difficult isnt challenge its a failure to evolve.
Oh my god dude. Whoever wrote this doesn't know anything.
First of all, Demon's Souls came out a long time ago and its not the hard after a day of playing it, you just can't many mistakes.
Second, WoW didn't destroy EQ2 because of its retarded gameplay. It became popular because blizzard had a ton of money to dump into advetising and let all the simple minded people who never even touched a computer know about it. Thats why you have idiots in here thinking that WoW set some kind of bar when it just lowered it to stupidly easy gameplay.
How are people not realizing that WoW is popular because of advertising? Its the only MMO that advertises on TV in north america for crying out loud.
Its like thinking a slightly smaller wheel is better than a regular wheel.
I agree with most of what you are saying here, I played WoW for awhile and found it to have it's own form of challenges and strategy to master. But, those are easily mastered and soon the game becomes a repetitive and boring waste of time that you shell out a monthly fee for. When my HDD crashed over a year ago WoW never made it back onto my notebook . . . have not missed it in the slightest.
Don't enjoy grinding? You must hate WoW. That game is the reason players started paying others to level their characters for them. WoW actually inspired the creation of a secondary industry that focused on taking the tedium out of playing WoW . . . impressive.
Demon's Souls, the first day I played it I was sure there was something I was missing. Some visual or audio cue that was slipping past me. I'm not the best player on the planet but I do have some skill. How is it that I could not get past the first level? Try as I might I died over and over again. Finally, I began to understand. I was looking at Demon's Souls as a simple hack and slash, my mistake.
The beauty and challenge of DS is in understanding that the main obstacle to success is you, the player. Don't want to be "jumped by a pack of mobs"? Simple, lure them away a few at a time. does this take longer? Sure, but the satisfaction you feel is real. You died and lost all your souls? Using caution and skill you can reclaim them.
"The archaic ideal that stronger and faster enemies = more difficult isnt challenge its a failure to evolve."
I submit the argument that in the case of Demon's Souls the failure to evolve is the players, not the games or the developers. The failure of the player to not try adjusting their play style or way of thinking rather than simply trying to force their way through. Remember, that is from my experience with the game, and not intended as insulting.
Don't get me wrong. Demon's Souls is not for everyone any more than WoW is. My main point is simple: Gaming is as personal as Love and Death. What I look for in a game cannot and SHOULD NEVER BE the exact same as you look for in a game. Not liking a game someone else loves is not a crime or a sin.
In conclusion, I commend you for leaving personal attacks out of your post.
Yes MMOs and gameplay..... Currntly 95%+ of anythiung being released has pretty much no gameplay. Easy click a mole pretty sad.
It's back to MUDs for an intelligent if smaller playerbase..... Where community exists and you actually have to play the game.
Cryptic has managed to use a 'difficulty slider' in their MMO CO and they are thinking of adding one to STO as well. Perhaps this might be a solution to this issue?
After I learned how to play an MMORPG and put days into learning my class I was left bored by the challenge that WoW exhibited. I admit I never played MUDs growing up, nor did I even hear about EQ until I started playing WoW last yer, but even I like a challenge. I usually would just attack mobs or NPC's that were a few levels higher then me to up the difficulty. Still though I think it would have been a better game if they had difficulty settings for WoW, or any MMO for that matter.
I think the problem or stigma that MMORPG's face like EQ or more difficult games is that they are nerdy games. Games that people want to make spreadsheets for while playing in order to get the most damage, games that are so hard you are excluded unless you are willing to learn the ways of the gaming nerd. It is this kind of game that excludes a potentially huge player base. So the question ultimately becomes how do Developes please both groups, or should they even bother? If the non nerdy player base is huge and the elitist nerds are so few then why wouldn't they aim for the larger player base in order to increase revenue potential?
Even then though, dumbing down a game to the point of it being so easy an average 8 year old could play it is perhaps too extreme. There needs to be challenge, and maybe a difficulty slider isn't such a bad way to appease both extremes of the player base.
Are you Kidding me. Turn this intoan mmo. No thanks. Thats just like the development fot The ELderscrolls mmo. Im not looking forward to that. Mainly due to there are way too mnay mmo already and they all the same focused on the same backdrop. WOW, WAR, ROM, WOK and Jade Dynasty. Plus the over abused player auction house or whatever its call. Everythins is stale with the mmo industry. I like this game, but It was like have a fat chick step on your balls with stilletos. You might as well consider your self castrated
The author does Demon's Soul a disservice when it says EQ was hard the way that game is hard.
Difficulty is not measured by how OFTEN you die. Nor is it measured by how much it HURTS when you die. Difficulty is obtained when it is challenging to get to a goal.
Demon's Soul requires that you achieve your goal while having surmounted a number of challenges in a level. Yes they share a harsh penalty but compare what else Demon's Soul does, it resets the level and you must do eveything over again until you GET IT RIGHT.
This is not true of EQ or any MMO (except maybe DDO). In EQ you could easily progress in a very formulaic, repetitive and safe manner once you knew how.
Yes EQ was more dangerous and risky than WoW, but that does not mean it was hard. It meant you need to be more cautious. That is where the word "accessible" comes in. That word says nothing aboout challenge because there is no challenge just more risk. Risk is NOT challenge.
And this has been an issue since before MMO in the MUD days. People erroneously equate risk with challenge. Risk is certainly important and it can be an element of a challenge, but it is not challenging in and of itself. It is merely gambling.
High stakes Texas Hold'em is not harder nor easier than penny anty Texas Hold'em it just changes the feel of the game.
The mechanics of most MMOs make creating challenge in the context of video games rather hard. They tend to simply take stuff away from you. They do not do what most single player games make you do; replay the level until you get it right. Often ppl just grind easy stuff until they get some upgrade.
Even in instances where these mechanics are used to some degree they are regularly neutered by having the instance boil down to unlinked encounter after unlinked encounter then boss fight then other patrol etc etc. Little bits and bites of stuff without a real cohesive level.
You want to know what was harder than every single MMO every made? Battletoads with that level where you ride the jetbike was harder than every single MMO every made and if you could not do that level then you could not get anywhere.
If you can't do an EQ or WoW raid boss with a decent strategy you farm more items and consumables. It is fundamentally different.
I would love to play a difficult PvE MMO with harsh penalties and forced grouping. Guild Wars in the beta and before Nightfall was great difficulty wise. Then Heroes were introduced and suddenly it was easy mode solo grind... sigh. I can't believe I missed Everquest.
Nowadays I find only untwinked hardcore Diablo 2 can bring back that level of concentration and fun.
I'm kind of sick of developers talking about game's as if they've played them for 2 weeks leveling up and think they understand what the game is about.
While I agree with the gist of your message, content is what's important in a MMO, whether its leveling up like what you do in a long term game, for example what FF11 was, but in the case of WoW its a mix of what you do to level up and what you do after you've done that. The majority of WoW players are at the level cap, the content there is what drives the game.
Leveling up in WoW now can take just a few days of play time, that is miniscule to the amount of hours any gamer will put in to their games long term, no matter if they are hardcore or casual, and if the game didn't have the content to keep them there after they reached it, they wouldn't continue playing it long term...they'd find a new game and move to it...which is what's happening now, game after game comes out with no content, players get bored and hop to the next one.